Awakening Now

Moving Beyond The Mind In Spiritual Awakening With Viivi Jokela

• Ilona Ciunaite / Viivi Jokela • Episode 65

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Moving Beyond the Mind in Spiritual Awakening | Viivi Jokela Interview

In this enlightening episode of Awakening Now, Viivi Jokela shares her profound insights on transcending the mind during spiritual awakening. We may face fear and uncertainty as we journey into the unknown and release old beliefs. However, embracing this path reveals our true nature and the Natural State of being.

Viivi discusses:

Releasing attachment to the mind and ego
The role of fear in the awakening process
Finding safety in the unknown
The realization that awakening is possible
Her personal journey from seeker to awakened awareness
Failure, groundedness, openness and how to integrate all that into humanness. 

Join us as we explore the beauty of ordinary experiences and the journey of spiritual awakening. Learn to embrace imperfection and trust your unique path, remembering that true freedom arises from accepting all aspects of the human experience.

Whether you're just starting or deep into your spiritual journey, this conversation offers valuable insights and practical guidance on moving beyond mental limitations to discover the freedom of spiritual awakening.

For more from Viivi, visit her website
http://sensingradiance.com, 
where she shares insights on spiritual awakening and self-realization through a direct experiential approach. She offers individual counselling and mentoring sessions that are an intuitive blend of inquiry, direct pointing, emotional digestion, and embodied intimacy with the whole of reality.

She was a guest on Buddha at the gas pump show:
https://batgap.com/category/awakened/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh858GJGrm4


If you need assistance with your inquiry come to Liberation Unleashed where you can register for a free account and get a volunteer guide free of charge. Or if you need my support, send me an email through my website which is 

http://www.IlonaCiunaite.com I’ll be happy to help. 

Liberation Unleashed
Http://www.liberationunleashed.com

Ilona's Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/markedeternal

Liberation Unleashed book is available on Amazon. 
https://www.amazon.com/Liberation-Unleashed-Breaking-Illusion-Separate/

#awakeningnow #ilonaciunaite #howtodoselfinquiry #selfinquiryquestions #liberationunleashed #seeingthroughselfillusion

Info about free monthly meetings on Zoom 
http://ilonaciunaite.com/events/

Podcast 
https://awakeningnow.buzzsprout.com

Music by Valdi Sabev, Visit his channel for more calm and relaxed music 
https://www.youtube.com/c/ValdiSabev/featured

Websites
http://ilonaciunaite.com
http://liberationunleashed.com

and when you really start to kind of go beyond the known like the known self and uh life as you thought it was and reality as it thought it was um you don't know where you're going that's the thing with the unknown um so so there's this phase phase of the process um where we kind of know that we need to go beyond the mind we need to go beyond um all these ideas and uh understandings uh but there's something in us that feels uh scared you know that want wants to hold hold on to that because it has become a source of safety for us like we have just got um used to live in that type of way that we search for for safety in you could say knowledge or or in the mind uh so first uh it can appear as fear like a very maybe subtle fear or even intense fear that you are actually asked to let it all go and then that's the that's the amazing thing that a that a true like a genuine safety can actually arise from that unknown when when you relax relax into it hello Vivie hi Ilona

how are you today I'm great thank you well thank you so much for coming to the podcast a it's nice to yeah to be able to uh talk about these things and see where it takes us conversation yeah well the podcast is called Awakening now so what is your definition of Awakening what do you see um that's a really good question um well I like to call it the Natural State um that seems to be like a you know easy way to talk about it without making it sound something uh far away from the everyday experience or something mythical like Enlightenment right um so yeah I would just call it the Natural State uh of uh of true being or of our true nature and um but there's there would be many many other ways to talk about it as well for sure so because it's really something that uh uh is beyond all descriptions all um definitions and um that's why it's so uh um uh yeah interesting to try to talk about it yeah wonderful I see that there are many Awakenings and one of them is Awakening to the Natural State I guess this is this is what we are talking today about sometimes people come in on the show and they are talking about different Awakenings but it's good to know about what we are talking about before we start yeah I agree there are many different types of um yeah Awakenings like you say and many different types of perceptual shifts that can that can take place um but yeah what what I would call the natural state is something that's uh the common ground for for them all um yeah something like that good so would you like to share a little bit about what happened in your experience in your story how this Awakening happened

yeah it's um right now where where I am at the moment um it's uh a little bit

like I'm I'm in the state of just silence and yeah so um trying to create a create a kind of story about the person who went through all these uh experiences and phases and um shifts and challenges and all that it's uh in a way it's very real and uh and and I think it's good to share these personal stories and accounts because at least for me hearing other people sharing them has been very valuable and uh supportive in my own process um but yeah where should I start maybe you want to ask uh more specific question yeah I know what you mean it's like tell me a story but which story to tell yeah yeah and then the story easily kind of condensates into this uh particle form and I don't know it would be nice to explore it in a fresh way let's say like this this this show is for a Seeker somebody that is watching videos and is looking for awakening and trying to get what is this all about and there is there is seeing these people on internet talking about this fundamental shift this Natural State but from that perspective of a Seeker it's like a big wall there how to find it so I'm I'm curious and I'm inviting you to share about that Crossing of that line of you know where you were a Seeker some kind of into realization or recognition yes or that that fundamental shift like just before the shift and how it

happened well I think it all starts first of all from
a moment when it really becomes clear for us that this is a real possibility you know not as a philosophy not as a possible you know option for some people who practice decades and decades or live in a foreign cultures and ashrams and so on but it's a real possibility for me uh right now basically it it's not something that I'm going to anymore postpone into the future or or or so on so when that um possibility awakens experimentally and it really becomes the most uh interesting thing for for us like the most fascinating thing even we can't really explain why because it's kind of hard to say what is it there that's uh kind of uh pulling us um but it's it's like something from deep within starts to awaken and starts to break through the conventional way of seeing the world and seeing the self and what we are told that what life is about and um it's like a deep mysterious Wall that um kind of starts to start to crack through from within I would say and um and then we kind of go through I think many of us all kind of uh phases when we a little bit play with it and you know it can be kind of like a hobby even a serious hobby I would say like for me it it became very serious hobby but it was still a hobby and and then I reached this point uh where which was very very specific for me um where I just said to myself that this is the only thing that really matters like like everything else is just going to be chaotic mess and it has been a chaotic mess and nothing really makes sense and this is the only thing that really feels uh um that I'm going to invest invest my life for and I don't know what it means I don't know what it's going to do to my life um but I'm going to give it my everything and I I I don't know where I'm going you know but um I know that um somehow um something in my uh like almost like a it's almost like a deep genetic I feel like knowledge that we carry with us and then it unlocks and uh is like wow it felt very familiar for me when when this uh kind of deep conviction really settled in that this is a possibility and I'm going to do it I don't know how to do it and uh yeah does that make sense yeah and then what happened

um well I went through this what's often called the process of Awakening and uh for me there was a I can kind of um see two main shifts that happened so I call the first one well the first Awakening and then I had a much more deeper and thorough uh shift two years after that and um I uh I kind of uh feel that those two shifts were different than any other experiences or insights because they were very obviously permanent shifts at the uh way of perceiving reality at the identity level um so um yeah and especially the second shift was very very like all encompassing it was very very energetic um like not just uh that type of clear seeing but like this type of sense that the um like the energetic core of my being or or the psyche that I had felt uh prior to that moment as some sort of Center energetic center of the experience it it kind of uh um dissolved basically dissolved into kind of energetic openness boundlessness uh that's very very viscerally felt and um um and yeah there's been a kind of acclimation to that and many many other insights then that followed after that uh that uh kind of big big release or or big shift and that was two and a half year ago fascinating so what um what happened do you remember like what pushed what was the last push to last thought maybe something happened that well at that point I being kind of uh deep in this inquiry um and in this kind of very you could say concentrated place for a couple of years right after the first Awakening uh like this has had kind of became like um seven days a week 24 hours a day kind of thing that I couldn't anymore separate practice from anything else and it would just be there all along kind of um not as something I was just thinking about but something that I was really really just uh um orienting towards with the whole of my being and with a very very like kind of intense aspiration I would say um and then uh yeah the last kind of a thing that I I remember that there I felt that there was um um there was this trauma that kept kind of uh showing up showing up and surfacing again and again and again and again and I felt that was uh somehow that was holding the identity still somehow locked to itself and on that day I just put this intention that I'm I'm ready and I'm willing to feel whatever needs to be felt uh so that um it can unravel itself because I was just I I just felt at that point that I I you know I didn't know know what it meant but uh after that there was a kind of bigger release I would say a kind of a um Kundalini release that it really really came out it really really came out and it was first um so
destabilizing like the day after I remember I felt I never felt as destabilized in my whole life and I would just feel that something is really weird I would wake up and I would be like like there would be just this very interesting energy like you know and uh and I would kind of just walk around in my apartment to do my and doing my normal things and then there was just this kind of voice that um not really from the mind but from the gut that that arose and it was just like uh saying like yeah this failed like whatever I had been doing for two years like this very kind of um powerful inquiry suddenly there was just this point like like it it's it's done it failed like whatever it was and it was just so astonishing for me that I just kind of sit down into the you know into meditation like I would usually do in the morning but in a kind of the state of destabilization and right when I close my eyes then this um release energetic uh release release happened so um I guess that's a little bit of a classical story but um uh yeah I really needed to reach that reach that point of amazing failure you know amazing failure and uh and uh yeah then then it was there you know that that kind of complete surrender complete surrender wow or Grace I hear you and after that it was like these filters they just started to kind of uh fall away and it took all the way about one or two weeks they just started to fall away Fall Away Fall Away Fall Away uh like any sense of like subject object any sense of um world that is other than myself any sense of that there is an inner an outer uh you know any sense of solidity uh like all of that it just kind of kept kept unfolding unfolding unfolding into this just total transparent luminosity and then even that kind of dissolved and uh and um uh there was like a total disidentification from form that's how it felt like from from any kind of form even that type of really really subtle form that I'm awareness I am uh basically anything

whatsoever I hear you and it sounds like there was a lot of determination a lot of Readiness a lot of focusing a lot of energy just going into that inquiry to the point of it exhausting itself completely yeah a lifetime of determination yeah that's really good to hear because sometimes people they just dip their fingers or dip their toes in this seeking and they say yeah enlightment 5 o'cklock why is it not coming you know yeah yeah I've been inquiring for three months now and I'm still not awake yeah and it's so amazing like when it then kind of happens and you see it for what it is that the sense of contractedness that sense of contracted self and uh uh like it's all like it's nothing other than that deep deep uh desire in us of reality to wake up to itself and it feels like uh suffering or it feels like longing or feels like a a kind of desperation on the other side but when on the other side it's it you can kind of see and feel how it never ever was anything other than just this  boundless infinite um freedom freedom and uh ease and uh amazing just um kind of um yeah there's no really words for it I I I usually don't want to call it anything or give it any qualities because uh easily the mind then gets these you know ideas about it and uh it's it's just so so beyond any any concepts yeah it's it's it's it's transconceptual it's oh nice transconceptual I like that

and here we are here we are yeah so and it's interesting because in a way everything is exactly the same and nothing is the same so um so like there's this Loop you go all the way like like a full circle and then you then you end up to this place which is not a place where you always been that you never left so there's not really arrival because you cannot really leave from this uh uh um original condition of ours because it's so primary to what what everything is like it's not possible to be anything either ever for for me or for anyone and that's the perception and well kind of seeing seeing that that's that's just there so it's kind of like this going Beyond Awakening and you know because Awakening always comes with this idea of unawakening right but when you kind of see that um that's all there is and all there ever was it kind of loses its its meaning I mean Awakening for whom and from what it's just a

yeah yeah that beingness our presence or openness or whatever words we can use it's always here it's always been here it's always now so yeah that is and there's and it's always been like awake because that's its nature it's just this uh like Lucid uh immediate presence that it's awake and it's here and now and it's always here and now and it's just spontaneously just here and now and and it's not it's kind of like not dependent on anything it's uh and that's what you can realize experientially when you have this this these Awakening Awakening insights that um yeah what you are it's uh something unborn and undying yeah and yet the Mind needs to go for that trip and try to find that out yeah yeah all these ideas and Concepts and oh I want this I want that and give me Awakening yeah it needs to go on its own trip and we just wait here wait here for it to complete its journey and to fail and get really disappointed get really hopeless yeah yeah it's like this amazing disappointment it's like yeah and it's totally worth it it's like amazing joke also I feel but The Joke is, You know on myself or so I don't mind yeah it's interesting because you know failing Is Not What It Seems the mind is so set up on of achieving something getting something or becoming something but then this failure is always like running behind like when are you going to stop and recognize that you failed no no I don't want to recognize and failed I keep going I keep going for another 20 years if I need to just not to look at that I failed that failure yeah but the entrance is right is a great great teacher great teacher like that and um yeah it's always there whenever there is any kind of uh projection into reality to be in a certain way and and then it's always there to show show like this uh reality where there is no control basically and nothing can really be known and nothing needs to be known and um any any attempt to somehow control or manage the experience it's uh always going to fail yeah yeah so it's not what the Mind wants literally mind wants to control but they wants to control but I think in the end what the mind really really wants is to kind of resolve back home into this it's because it's very peaceful for the mind to just be resolved into this infinite openness so um yeah but for some reason um uh first first it kind of has a life of its own almost like that conditioned mind and uh um it it's it's it's kind of like in this contracted contracted form and and then when when that contractedness releases itself then the mind also um is seen as nothing other nothing other than

this yeah it's beautiful it is beautiful there's a lot of beauty Beauty in this yeah yeah a lot of Beauty for sure even it's um beyond that kind of beauty that the mind is sometimes you know kind of there's Beauty in everything not just in the things that we used to think that are beautiful there's Beauty in well ordinary mundane stuff and then there's beauty also in um things that we would usually consider maybe like really uh challenging or devastating or or or kind of even gut-wrenching so so any kind of experience of flavour has its is its own own Beauty I would say it's the kind of beauty that just breaks your heart open or or yeah for whatever this is life reality Mystery mystery great mystery

mhm just lovely to be without any trying when you're trying to to get somewhere

yeah yeah like all those ideas and they're so

strong that are part of the conditioning that the body mind goes through that we need to kind of earn our worth by being someone and achieving this or that and you know if if you don't have those things to show about yourself then you kind of you almost feel like there's is unworthiness to your very sense of being and and it's all just uh thoughts basic thoughts and beliefs but but um they really really managed to um kind of uh obstruct this uh natural natural way which is just um so where where the value is is just in this uh you could say of sense of being and uh just this appreciation that anything is at all and you

know

yeah so uh do you work now with people do you assist their Awakenings I I am saw that you are doing Retreats that's interesting yeah yeah can you tell a little bit about what you do? I finished the retreat here in Finland at this really beautiful Retreat so yeah I've been doing uh uh kind of small Retreats here in Finland now for a couple of years um and um uh I also started to do one-on-one work with people now within the last uh I would say like half a year or or so um so yeah it's I I I love it I love when I get to connect with all kind of people and from this place and uh it it feels very um there's this deep kind of uh sense of alignment that I feel that comes with being able to uh share about these share about these things and um yeah so I don't really like to see myself as a teacher necessarily but yeah I've facilitate facilitate this or I'm open to talk about this with who whoever is into this stuff wonderful yeah I love that too I've been doing this for a while now and it's amazing you know like I noticed that there are some patterns and people come in at the same time with the same kind of situation mental psychological emotional situation and it's always something for me also in there it's just like a mirrors coming in thank you for that we can all look at that together I experienced that too like I learned a lot uh from everyone yeah and then people when they kind of start to have these um openings or insights and they speak from that that place you can kind of recognize it because it's so self validating validating and it comes from yeah and such a such a you could say like the source is opening up as them and and it's great to hear oh that's that's the way you like you experience it that's the way it opens up for you and I can kind of then attune with that and um like learn learn New Perspectives like

that and I try usually to like really listen to people when they speak um like how they are using the words because maybe they use them in a different way that I do so if they say something like Unity or or no self or Kundalini then like I'm like okay well what what do you mean by that like like how do you experience that and that I find it's really really really good it's really great to kind of stay fresh with the with the words we use and all the time checking the direct experience like okay what do I actually mean when I say that so that like I'm really interested in that type of speaking that's kind of coming uh spontaneous and fresh say from stories or something yeah yeah and sometimes it's just being with somebody that is already open with no Central contraction can help to release that tension that's

build up yeah yeah sometimes that's the most powerful thing that you just rest in this uh unconditioned presence you just rest in this open uh awareness and uh

yeah and there's this uh like great warmth or Radiance that I feel that kind of starts to become very Salient so like my my site is called sensing Radiance I like that word a lot because it's so descriptive of that uh um presence um like awareness can sometimes sound a little bit abstract or or even mental so that's why I like to always emphasize that it has that quality of like a warmth radiant warmth like indiscriminating radiant warmth beautiful I use 
word sweetness just feels like sweetness it's sweet yeah it is yeah just some quality of sweetness what you say radiant yeah quality of sweetness and softness like yeah like like no edges and um no boundaries and and just this kind of fluidity

also right what would be your advice for somebody who's listening and want that I want that how to get it I'm looking for it I know it's there I you people are talking about this I had enough of listening how to get there what would be your advice if any

yeah I would just connect with that uh heart's longing and um but in an experiential way so meditation is a great way to just um like ex explore that to really um kind of relax into the presence relax into the body and see if the longing can kind of uh make itself known in in the experience and um uh because like it is it is what you are and deep inside you never really forgot that so you kind of just want to um come to that state of uh remembrance right um and Trust because there can be a lot of Doubt uh at least in in the first first phase of of this uh journey I think there can be a lot of Doubt uh whether this is even possible and or doubt about anything whatsoever the doubt is I feel very very predominant predominant and it can be very intense just prior prior to the first

Awakening um so you kind of want to

um yeah you want to really trust in your own experience you want to really trust this uh capacity in yourself that your body knows how to go through this process of Awakening uh you have that intuition and if you give it just like space in your life like space and time uh that you have a little bit more time to just be and listen to that intuition listen to that um uh instinctual knowing then it can start to kind of sprout and uh then you just kind of attune with that so inquiry is another other great way and there's so many different ways to do the inquiry um like my way was a little bit intense uh but you can also do inquiry you know much more I guess uh gentle gentle manner I think there's nothing wrong with intensity because that intensity can be the fuel like I I'm burning for it now the intensity can be helpful actually right so let's get intense let's get intense looking at that longing yeah yeah yeah there is something knocking from inside saying come here come here it's just meeting that seeing what's there but as you mentioned very valid thing there is a lot of doubt and not trusting so I think that needs to be looked at before anything else like trusting your own experience yeah because you know people go and watch these videos or go to Retreats or satsangs or and they pick up other people's stories about their experience and then there's something lacking here I don't have the experience like they had or this is how it should be it's not like this here so there something is missing or it's not right and that doubt is the Killer really because our experience is the only one we have nobody else can have your

experience talking about the human being that is looking for awakening nobody else can have your experience yeah and when you really start to kind of go on the known like the known self and uh life as you thought it was and reality as it thought it was um you don't know where you're going that's the thing with the unknown um so so there's this phase phase of the process um where we kind of know that we need to go beyond the mind we need to go beyond um all these ideas and uh understandings uh but there's something in us that feels uh scared you know that wants wants to hold hold on to that because it has become a source of safety for us like we have just got um used to living that type of way that we search for for safety in you would say knowledge or or in the mind uh so first uh it can appear as fear like a very maybe subtle fear or even intense fear that you are actually asked to let it all go and enter to something that where where there are no reference points where you cannot really see anything but then if you are really willing and able to um enter enter there experientially and no one can really tell how to do that but you you can do that this is this is what I I know for sure that everyone has that capacity to uh enter there and um and then that's the that's the amazing thing that a that a true like a genuine safety can actually arise from that unknown when when you relax relax into it and sometimes the unknown can be also felt like a kind of emptiness because there's no reference points there's no like nothing to hold on or groundlessness I guess it's it's also one way so so um but when we when we really allow oursel to completely dissolve into that uh then a completely different kind of peace and safety arises rises from that which is very mysterious because you can't explain it right like there's there's nothing there and yet um that's a true foundation somehow I hear

you yeah when when somebody's seeking for this we recognize the Natural State or recognize what am I what this it always seems like it's something to do it's something in the future if I do this that will happen if I get there I'll see but it's always an invitation to come back to yeah to what is already here because the freedom and peace and everything is already here it's not you can't get it by achieving it you can only notice that what is already free yeah exactly it's kind of mind's twist coming back to exploring what is here yeah it's it's almost like you all the time take a backward step and backward step instead of going towards something and then when you kind of collapse all the way you know that which you can't go further then that kind of collapses into itself so then there's just one one thing but but first it can feel a little bit like you take a step backwards and you find this kind of background uh presence or or or awareness um which which feels much more uh primary primary than this experience of being immersed into the content of experience and U and then then there can be this subtle dualities still there you know the background subject and and the content of experience and and and that can then also also then dissolve because there there really is just this indivisible uh seamless uh um openness where nothing can can really be separated um nothing can be separated but everything is also very clearly just being itself that's also the Paradox about it in like like like all the textures and all the kind of qualities of sense experience are very distinctly being themselves but at the same time you can't uh really

differentiate or find boundaries um yeah I was just thinking you know this this is here right now and it's so mysterious really that it cannot be seen so simply but it's already here right now okay let's take that as a ground zero it's already here right now that freedom that um sense of naturalness being aware is already here right now and the Mystery is how the mind can override that with some ideas and some Concepts not to see it so sometimes I say to people you either see it you either know it or you think you don't like literally you think yourself out of this Natural State you think the Mind thinks itself out of it like fighting wanting the peace but not wanting to give up wanting to be at rest but not wanting to to let go of all the conceptual rubbish basically yeah I think that's a great way of saying it yeah that the mind is thinking itself out of it and there's a lot of energy that goes into it that when it does that it's like a great effort to keep ourself uh somehow to create this artificial sense of uh separation and push and pull and uh and and all of that struggle yeah well that's the great mystery isn't it it's not the mystery that this is this is okay yeah I am there is this beingness there's always here never changing my eyes are open or closed I'm sleeping or awake it's always here right and then there is this idea that I need to get somewhere I need to become awake MH thought alone is such a killer of Joy killer especially when it's taken seriously but it has to do that to come to complete failure and giving up surrendering yeah it's fascinating isn't it this whole it is fascinating

yeah like it's um like sometimes I like to call call this no self but then it's more like um because because there's not self at least in the same way that there used to be but then when I'm like well what the self was that's kind of like like that's very bizarre to try to explain like yet something was here that is not here anymore but also it never really was here so how can something be there but not be there and then at some point it just gone and you know that's yeah that's definitely the a very mysterious phenomenon yeah that's the true

mystery this is the Open Secret I guess someone called it yeah I think Tony Parson Open Secret Open Secret is you're already free there's nothing else but

this and at the same time it does feel very real that existential contractedness right is um not just a matter of clear seeeing it's it's very physically felt uh experience and a kind of heavy experience at least for me there was this psychological kind of heaviness that came with it that was felt in a very physical way so so so then when that releases um um it does feel feel different in the in the body like the lightness the quality of lightness but

uh but also groundedness but again groundedness in groundlessness

so at least for me the groundedness wasn't right there I was blissed out flying with the birds up in the sky yeah it  was so tiring I couldn't eat I couldn't sleep for months

Awakening or yeah yeah yeah until I found the ground what I needed to ground myself

somehow yeah for me too like there was that period after and like you say with the sleeping and eating like very cha like I don't want to say challenging because it didn't feel like a problem but I just couldn't sleep like it was almost impossible to sleep or I just slept at very odd hours and I couldn't didn't also really eat much and I didn't feel like eating much but um I don't think any of that is really a problem it's only if the mind is starting to react to it and starting to panic like that something it's not right here and then that create a little bit of um yeah it didn't feel like a problem it just felt weird yeah but it was really good to find the way to ground myself I made a big difference like come back come back off your clouds into the into the humanness how would you say that that happened the

grounding well just knowing that helped and

um yeah it was just giving permission to come back into humanness again I don't need to fly like an air balloon where the the wind flows I can be solid rooted connected more to the Earth connected to the body yeah yeah none of it was a problem but it was getting tiring at some point yeah yeah I think it's so important that there is that uh full re-entrance to the humanness somehow because only that can ground ground this otherwise there can be this really subtle distinction at least I can kind of recognize that for myself that uh when I was in that phase uh after the Awakening that lasted like like maybe year or year and a half or something um that there was a subtle distinction that even though it was undivided and it was very clear that everything is one it still felt like a this um kind of in it unborn immensity um it wasn't entirely in sync with the actual Body Mind experience Human Experience and uh all of its uh you would say relative dynamics that it's engaged with so that felt for me just really complete when when that kind of synced into itself the whole process

yeah the whole process of coming home where you never left yeah it never ends I feel it really never ends um like like I wrote to you in when we were exchanging emails that um for me this hasn't been static thing you know that just Awakening happens and then there is just some sort of you know Awakeness I I feel it it the the realization it has a kind of a growth pattern you know like that uh first it was almost like newly born everything was just so fresh you know like it kind of saw itself in everything and um and that was its own own period and um it had had had it had its own Beauty to it and then came other phases and kind of challenges and um you know and and uh even it's all the time being itself it's very clearly also going through some sort of a yeah almost like a growth just a natural growth um and did you have that I got it a lost it phase was that in your experience or not no for me it never felt like that after the after that second Awakening that I had because it more felt like that the

um uh what whatever the that energetic aspect of the self had been uh it just wasn't there anymore so it's not really something that can come and go um so what do you what do you think it's going on with people when they are in that I got it I lost it phase

um I think it's uh that's more about that the clear-seeing aspect of awakeness because it's a kind of like a perceptual kind of window you could say that it can kind of open and then it can close and it can open and it can close and um and it's just a phase for a lot of people to go through that it kind of does that before it kind of uh opens and doesn't close anymore and and you can't really do anything about it when it's kind of opening and closing like that or any kind of reaction to that will just create a lot little bit of turmoil usually in the system um so I don't know why why it does that but um uh it's a little bit like I guess guess that um it's just not so black and white it's not like wow there happens some sort of shift like you turn the light switch on and suddenly the lights are on and now awakeness is there I mean it can happen like that but most of the time it's a little bit like a there can be this uh intermediary phase or like a kind of Twilight phase where you are waking up and it's like waking waking waking waking waking waking and and kind of stabilizes like that for for some people well you mentioned that in your experience there was looking at trauma so perhaps it
could be an element of that you know because the things that we're running away from the things that we don't want to feel they come in into this light now and they have to resolve and yeah that that's what is holding the strongest so perhaps looking at in that stage it may be worth looking at that possibility that there's some trauma there or something emotional something traumatic happened before that needs to resolve and it's just giving time for that to open up yeah yeah I think so it's just that the identity is still still bound to those you could say un unresolved experiences and every time when when they arise and and we are meeting them fully we don't really need to do anything other than just to feel feel them fully then then some of that uh uh kind of entanglement or binding it's it's it's resolving it's resolving resolving resolving resolving and and until the identity kind of releases itself from that uh experience that we've been like the system has been carrying carrying sometimes our whole life because a lot of these traumas they are very very early early experiences for many people so it's really being like your whole life it can feel like that and um it is it is possible to uh in in that sense to be free of them that they don't anymore Define you in any way you know they don't Define what you are uh they can still arise in the experience but it's it's more like just um part of that indivisible wholeness and you know it's not even part because there are no parts but so so that's the fascinating thing I think that I discovered after I after um the second Awakening that you could say the remnants of self could arise so the remnants of separate self I guess that's one way of saying it that we're still um that the system was uh Still Still carrying carrying these experiences but it was all experienced from the perspective of um wholeness and like indivisible seamless wholeness so even those apparent um you could say experiences of trauma trauma and separation they were felt from that place of a um unbroken wholess and I think then they really can can resolve themselves in a deep way they come home like everything comes home this so basically there is no quick fix huh there is no quick fix yeah there's no quick fix and I don't think there's no like perfected State and there's no need for perfected State like it's only the self that is kind of Desiring for some sort of perfected condition and maybe it starts to imagine that all this Awakening thing it's going to be that um but um yeah I just I was recently just reading this um it's a little Zen text I think it's called the verses of the Fate mind or something like that do you know that no no so in the end it says that uh the realization is to is is to be without anxiety about non- perfection something like that it's the complete absence of anxiety regarding non-perfection in about this you know human human aspects and and that feels for me very like resonant that feels like the you know true true freedom freedom to be to feel to

experience  yeah yeah yummy there's

no everything can just um yeah be as it is and there is in an absolute sense you could say there's this uh innate Perfection or completeness to everything and then at the human level you know there's this uh kind of imperfectness you could say like and and that's beautiful you know and uh it's it's uh one of the paradoxes of the of the realization that it is like

that and would you have any final words or any final advice or anything to say

like maybe we didn't touch on
something that you want to share

maybe for for someone who's going through something really challenging and really feels Alone um there can be so many moments and phases on this journey that the aloneness uh can kind of come through or even loneliness uh because uh it is something that majority of the people can't relate to like when we are in this process and start to be interested about it and kind of really invest into it so so there's there's a kind of aloneness connected to that and for me at least was very um important to understand that it's not loneliness sometimes it can appear you know with with with the sense of loneliness which is more about the sense of Separation but um uh with the realization there can be this mysterious aloneness which is not loneliness uh which is like deep interconnectedness and intimacy at the same time but it's not really togetherness and uh yeah just um kind of having trust trust in that also

yeah beautiful thank you thank you and I love the Golden Light coming from your screen and the picture and the light and

everything thank you

wonderful well thank you so much Viivi it's really a joy to meet you you too and thank you everyone for watching for listening and if you have a comment or question just something to share just write down in the comment section like share and come back for more see you next week bye for now