The Illusion of SELF - Non-Duality Explained

Non-duality and awakening aren’t concepts to believe in, they’re about seeing through the illusion of self. Trying to understand this with the mind is just another trap. You’ve been sold the idea that awakening is a magic switch… spoiler: it’s not.

This episode rips apart the myths, the trap of seeking, the patterns that keep you hooked, and the illusion that you are in control. There’s no chooser, no doer, no seeker. Just life doing its thing.

The questions asked are these:
Why does seeking keep you in circles
The cold truth about “free will” and choice
Why the self is just another program running 

If you’re fed up chasing “awakening” like it’s a finish line, this is the slap in the face that you need.
And perhaps by the end of this episode you will see why and how to stop playing the seeking game.

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Music by Valdi Sabev, Visit his channel for more calm and relaxed music 
https://www.youtube.com/c/ValdiSabev/featured

Websites
http://ilonaciunaite.com
http://liberationunleashed.com

Transcript

You are listening to 
awakening now podcast. This is episode number 109
The Illusion of SELF - Non-Duality Explained

My name is Ilona Ciunaite. I am a guide, an author, and co-creator of the Liberation Unleashed community. If you are going through the process of awakening, this podcast is for you. Over the past 14 years, I’ve been guiding and supporting seekers on their journeys to discover inner peace and freedom.

In this podcast, I dive deep into the heart of awakening. Together with my guests, we explore the pivotal moments that spark transformation, what life looks like before and after the shift, and how to navigate the challenges and beauty of living an awakened life.

Non-duality and awakening aren’t concepts to believe in, they’re about seeing through the illusion of self. Trying to understand this with the mind is just another trap. You’ve been sold the idea that awakening is a magic switch… spoiler: it’s not.

This episode rips apart the myths, the trap of seeking, the patterns that keep you hooked, and the illusion that you are in control. There’s no chooser, no doer, no seeker. Just life doing its thing.

The questions asked are these:
Why does seeking keep you in circles
The cold truth about “free will” and choice
Why the self is just another program running 

If you’re fed up chasing “awakening” like it’s a finish line, this is the slap in the face that you need.
And perhaps by the end of this episode you will see why and how to stop playing the seeking game.

The biggest problem is to see the difference between a conceptual and an actual experience. So you can repeat all day long there is no self, there is no yourself, there is selfish illusion. Can repeat that till your face turns blue. Doesn't make any difference

because it's not about concepts. It's not about language. It's not about how to describe this. It's about living everyday experience with knowing that all this is life. Everything is life. Everything is life flowing freely. There's no manager, no, no decider, nobody with free will outside of life making life happen.

And because it's so simple and so obvious and so in the face all the time, it's the most difficult thing to see because the mind is not paying attention to that. It's paying attention to contrast. It's paying attention to what's sharp, what's new, what's different, what's

taking attention, right? And that which is in the background all the time is is always here. So it's simple but very difficult.

And when we are looking for what is obvious,

there's no way to describe it. There's no description. And that's the difficulty for the mind because the mind is working on a conceptual level.

So how is that for you? Do you see it or do you think about it? Do you get it like really get it or you think that there is still some kind of wall, some kind of trap or something to cross over? I I really like this concept of gateless gate because people write to me or come to me and say, "I want to cross the gateless gate." Yep. I that's what I'm here for. I just want to cross the gateless gate. I say, you know why it's gateless? It's there is no gate. It's just nothing to cross. There's just what is here all the time, including now.

So for the mind, there is something to do, somewhere to get to or something to achieve.

But what is here beyond words? What is this here and that all the descriptions fail? It's this moment alive living vivid real true doesn't need to be imagined. It cannot be imagined because as soon as you imagine it it's not it.

So it's kind of paradoxical because seeking is trying to end by seeking. It cannot end by seeking. It can only end by stopping.

kind of have to give up all the concepts, all the ideas about what this should be like, what it should feel like, what's going to happen. So and so said it this, another one said like that. But what is here? Beyond concepts, beyond words.

There is this test.

I say there is no self at all. Never was, never will be. There's nothing separate making life happen in charge in control of life. There's nobody here running the show. I never was.

And the test is such that yeah, yeah, no big deal. Sure. Or there is some kind of resistance coming up or testing but but coming up

contraction not wanting this to be true. So this is your test. You can really see what's going on in you. There's no no self to awaken. There's nobody here to arrive at some kind of realization. It's that some someone it's imagined.

So let's hear your butt and let's start digging

and somebody say I object. Let's hear it.

Or maybe it's clear, simple, and yeah, what am I doing here? It's, you know, sky is blue. Yeah, sky is blue. No worries. Oh, how much can you talk about this?

Hi. Hi, Ellie. How are you? I'm good. How were you long time? Yes, I was away. Oh, okay. So uh you

it uh this test that you mention I mean if you tell yourself anything frequently enough like if you're a religious person of belonging to such and such religion if you if you tell yourself that that the opposite of that then you are going to Or if you let's say if you're an atheist, if you tell yourself an atheistic thing, it's not going to you're not going to face any resistance there. You can get used to something and not face any resistance there because your mind is so used to it. It's just not flowing. The emotions are not flowing except according to one set of rules. That's what happens with most people that they get used to those things. I agree. And you know what? You cannot lie to yourself because as soon as something happens, an argument or some situation happens, all these concepts, they fly away. You cannot lie to yourself. Yes, you can. You can get used to it. I hear you. Yeah. And there's so much now so many people repeating there is no self there is nobody here. You know you can repeat these words not seeing it and not realizing that that's true but deeply inside you know what is true whether you see it or you're just repeating it. You know that. Yeah. Absolutely. But it's good point. Thank you Ali. Yeah.

Thank you.

Hello. Hi. Hi, Matt. Hi. How are you? I'm very good. And you? Thank you. Very well. I'm still sometimes contemplating the coan, you know, or the the riddle that once it's seen, it can't be unseen. Because the mind does come back and beliefs, you know, even if you unplug a fan, it continues to spin. That kind of idea. Yeah. Yeah. So, um

I think I I think you gave me a glimpse. Yeah. Like whenever it was 20 years ago when we first met. And I think um

the the mind and the belief just um still a habit to identify with sensation, picture, story. And so

yeah, I don't I don't I don't have an answer yet to once it is seen, it is not um it's irreversible. Hey, I hear you too. Sometimes it's easy to forget and it can take years to remember because a glimpse is a glimpse. It's good start. It's definitely a good start. Yeah.

But then you said the mind identifies. It's not that I am the mind. I am this. I am that anymore. So it may even be subtle. And that that belief may remain and linger that there's something else to give.

But again you cannot lie to yourself. You cannot go back to believing what you believed before.

So if I tell you now that you are the separate entity outside of life like separate from the whole universe just living inside the separate body that doesn't depend on anything. It's kind of island in existence and then you are the one that is driving this body and making it do things. Does that sound right to you? No, not you know. But but that was the default belief like you told me look look I mean when you look there's nothing to see. Yeah. But that's not always looking not always looking right. Sorry. But imagine now believing that Santa is real. You can't

like real as in some entity that brings presents to kids one night all over the world. It's impossible to believe that because it's fictional. You know that. You can't believe that. You can't even pretend that you believe that cuz it's just ridiculous.

Yeah.

So it's more subtle than you know mind wants wants this to be. It's much more subtle.

Yeah. There could be traum trauma. There could be kinds of reasons why there still needs to be a protective mechanism separate from other empty phenomena. Yeah. Like if I go in a in a in a lake and draw a circle around me around the body in the water and say, "Okay, now this is protection. Now I'm protected from the water. That's kind of what happens.

But because you know it's hypnotic and you know hypnotism is something that mind mind sees through that suggestion.

Everything looks normal through that suggestion. You can't see differently because that suggestion is like the the primary lens and you don't look at the lens. You look at what it what it's seeing through that lens. So yeah, you can hypnotize yourself that now you draw a circle in the water and you're protected from the outside water. That's how it looks.

Thank you. Thank you ma'am.

You know yesterday was um 14 years for liberation unleashed. It was the birthday 14 years. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Still special time. Long time ago. Long time ago. It's amazing that it's still going. Yeah, that's right. Um Yeah. Glad I met you. Yeah, thank you. I would like to talk about resistance. Oh, wonderful. Yes, please. One of my favorite topics. It is. Yeah. I um you know like the resistance um when I look at all the mechanisms of the mind or the ego, I I kind of uh over the last couple uh of weeks or months I would say I came more and more to the conclusion that resistance is you know like kind of at the base of it all or at the core of of the whole uh ego structure and um

and I'm I'm kind of wondering if if there's always kind of a belief system behind the resistance you know like for me there are you know like certain emotions that that uh let's that's let's let's say bad emotions like sadness or something right it's not not a big problem but there are some some emotions where there is kind of a resistance to it right and for me I'm I'm a chronic pain sufferer so for me the biggest resistance is you know like when I when I have like a strong strong feeling of pain you know like on a pain scale around seven or eight I can you know like accept it before that but then there's kind of a threshold where you know every kind of uh acceptance goes out the window and then the the there is this resistance that I want to to you know like want to want it the pain to go to be away or something and I don't even know exactly if there is um kind of belief behind that resistance And the the funny thing is, you know, for me is really like the resistance never stops the flow at all. You know, it's still life is still flowing. It's just on top of it there's this other thing that is kind of making it miserable. Um, so I'm not even sure where I want to go with that. But you know like the whole resistance I'm when I'm doing self inquiry or something it's usually kind of centered around the resistance uh to various you know like people places emotions whatever comes up or pain or something maybe maybe you can talk a bit about that. Oh yeah, this is such a rich topic. One of the biggest teachers, one of the most juicy teachers. It's called resistance. Yeah, it's amazing how much it can teach. But let's just unpack it. But first of all, resistance is saying I don't like this. I don't want this. This shouldn't be happening. I want something else. This is no good. It's just acknowledging that this is uncomfortable. So it's not wrong or bad. It's making resistance into something wrong or bad. It's resisting resistance and it's a sandwich. You get a sandwich. Let's say sadness comes in. I don't like this. Let's get rid of it. But then, oh, I don't like resisting this either. This shouldn't be happening. This too much. So, it's kind of locked into a resistance sandwich. The way to undo it is so simple. It's ridiculous. It's two words. I agree.

I agree. I don't like it. I agree. It's uncomfortable. It's the same what you said, Ela, with you can say all all the day long there is no ego. And if you don't believe it, you know, that's the whole you can say I agree. But yeah, but if you just say it I agree to start with but do you feel any resistance? Now let's just get into it like in real time because we can talk about conceptually or we can look at it a bit. It's it's not uh there's always a little bit of lowlevel resistance. It's not it's not uncomfortable, but there is a bit. Yeah, I would say. Okay. Yeah, let's welcome it here.

It's okay. You can be here. Resistance, you're very welcome here. You can be.

Now where do you feel it in the body?

Yeah.

The funny thing is um I would say

um

I think it might have been like two weeks ago or something where when the first time for the first time I could actually feel where I could separate the resistance from the emotion. And yeah, usually resistance comes up with with fear, you know, like fear, anger, kind of that kind of stuff. Not so much with sadness, but with fear, you know, and uh it was always very fused, you know, it was never I could never kind of unpack it. And the the last time was for the first time where I noticed it was resistance was completely different or there was something else to the to the anxiety or to the fear. But I I'm not sure if I can even localize it um in the body. I mean the the usually it starts somewhere in the stomach, you know, like lower belly. There's some sort of contraction, you know, like that holding pattern somehow. Mhm. um you know all the years of the chronic pain I guess there's always some little bit of a hormone around the mid core section you would say but where it exactly is the the resistance is if I'm completely honest it's is kind of hard to hard to say you know right but just by looking at it you already kind of get curious about it and it's less of a problem

just by looking at it like what is this resistance actually? What's going on here?

Yeah, it's it's a good question why it should be a problem.

It's just informing that problem that there is something there that you haven't looked at. How about that? Is a guide for you on the spot which is showing you what you haven't looked at. Yeah. Yeah. I I know that consciously. I just can't I think you're right. There's something

And I want also to acknowledge and and say I'm sorry that I have to go through so much pain. That sucks. Really sucks. Yeah, it it does. It does. Thank you. Yeah, it's I don't know. I mean, but

I don't know what there's definitely something there that I haven't looked at, but it's it's really

it's really well hidden, I would say. I mean, I've looked at it. Yeah. So many times it's still uh likes to hide. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, maybe there is I mean, for me it was kind of Sorry. Sorry. Maybe there is nothing there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.

See, our mind gives labels to everything. You learn words. It kind of keeps doing keeps labeling. Now, what we call the resistance, it's a sense of I don't like this. No, this shouldn't be happening. Right? And it's not just narrative. There's also contraction, tension, or like hiding or trying to get away or trying to push something or pull something. So imagine it's like a like a some some kind of egg, right, without the shell and there's a membrane, the membrane around the egg to hold the shape, to hold the form, right? So that membrane it will let in something that is already like resonating or something that is already you know accepted but it will not let in something that is not uh something new for example or something contradicting what's going on inside. So the resistance the job of it is to protect the system or the belief system or the um personal structure or structure of a person identity structure from being challenged

from being dismantled or corrupted or whatever is just protection. So like membrane, it's always pushing and pulling.

I think you know when you said maybe there when like two a couple of minutes ago when you said uh with the resistance maybe there's nothing there. I I could I could feel that something was activated just by by you saying it, you know, because it's acknowledging, you know, like all the oh, you know, like my whatever is going on here, the resistance is important or, you know, it's there. It's it's hard to let go of blah blah blah. And, you know, when you said it, you know, like it was like I I I had that kind of weird sense uh that the resistance is not not really real or something or um

uh

yeah was interesting that's really interesting see the resistance as a sensation yes it arises but there is a narrative about it all the thoughts that instantly come I don't I don't want this They should be different. Yeah. And that brings in the me. The narrative brings in the me and because there is a sensation that arises as well. So what we call me or I is really resistant.

So it's just misidentified. Yeah. Maybe can do you mind if I tell you something? I'm not sure if that's completely uh relevant but I you know like um like for quite some times I always thought that uh I always have resistance with fear you know and the other negative emotions you know I could you know sometimes even enjoy it you know like bittersweet like the sadness that was never usually I don't want to get rid of it you know like but for for me fear was always kind of I thought that's where where I had the most resistance And then like pretty recently I had a I had a session with with with someone and and I realized that actually that that emotion that I thought was fear was to a large degree also anger and that kind of changed suddenly how I saw whatever was going on. So just maybe to make it a little bit more clear before that it was fear. So I felt you know like weaker or you know wanted to get rid of the fear and as soon as I realized it was anger I had this kind of empowerment whatever and then I noticed oh wow there is there is some story there that that that I wasn't able to see before that right and so I know there is some sort of story around the resistance right but but it's still I mean what you said about the membrane that's that's a really interesting think kind of metaphor maybe.

Yeah, maybe you can say a little bit more about that. Um,

how I mean how I mean you say this so many times just look but you know sometimes I'm always asking me how how how should I look exactly or where do I look? Is it always with the sensations or with the thoughts that come up? Okay. How to look? Feeling the sensation. This is a very great question. It's very important question because how do you look? Looking is not thinking. Right? For example, look around the room right now. What you see is what you see. Don't need to name every object. They need to know what it's made of. If you look at the wall, what is it made of? What is the wall made of?

I don't know. Colors. Yes. Just by looking. Yes. It's colors and shapes. And do you do you know the names for every shade?

Sorry. Do you know the names for every shade? Like the the color concept is white for example in my room is white but that's the concept that's idea but when you look at it it's just so many shades different colors there. Yeah know I don't probably don't know all the names for the for the shapes. I mean even you can argue that there are no shapes if it's all just colors you know like right then I'm just project whatever you know I can I can view it as just colors basically you know yes yes so this is looking it's not thinking because if I say what is the wall made of and you would say cement and maybe bricks that's thinking An experience is just color.

Now if I ask you Yeah. Sorry. Do you have a window in your room? Do you see outside through the window? Is it light or dark? It's light. Okay. So don't look now. But tell me what's the weather?

U don't look kind of kind of sunny. Uhhuh. Um what else?

Kind of warm. I don't know what you want me to say. What's the weather? Uh nice. See this this is coming from thinking. This is conceptual. This is not looking. Now if you look through the window

you can look now. See you can see and describe what you see.

Yeah. No, again I can't say it's only colors, but I can also say there's a sky, there are trees, there's a house. Is it windy? But that's

not really Yeah. But you see, you can look and see. The point is you can look and see and describe what you see. Thinking, you don't need to look. You just think. Okay. So when you look at resistance then you're just looking at sensation. Yes. What arises? What sensation? Where in the body? How intense? What are the thoughts that come with it? Right. What's the narrative? What do they say? How does body respond to that? You're looking.

Mhm. Cuz you can read a whole three books about resistance and not look once and you would think that you know everything, right? Yeah. Absolutely. But as soon as you look, you know, more than three books can contain.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's just a bunch of sensations and um

I think depending how intense there are in in a certain part of the body, it's kind of it locks the attention and then you're maybe not able to look really

Maybe that's that's part of the problem for me. I I think I'm sure you know what else what we call suffering is resistance.

What we call suffering is that tension that arises. I don't want this. They should be different. So the pain is pain can be very intense and very uncomfortable.

At some point there is I that comes in that doesn't want it or poor me or whatever stories happen with it and that's what's more painful than a day.

Yeah, I heard this many times. I'm not sure if I completely believe it actually depending on the level of pain, but um maybe that's that's only just a thought. But uh

yeah, I have this many time. I wasn't I was never really completely able to um to be completely okay with the pain at a certain level. It I mean it depends on the on the intensity. I mean I heard people claiming to be okay with with pain and I've seen it but for me it's always kind of difficult. You know it's it's okay to be not okay.

to be okay. What? To be not okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When it hurts, it hurts. Sometimes it's not okay. And it's okay.

No.

We are wired to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

Yeah, for sure.

Oh, and the pain is here. The pain is here. You resist it or not. It's here. Yeah, exactly. That's

I think I have to sit a bit with the membrane. It's not interesting.

Never never seen the resistance as a

as a container or something. But it's a

it's an interesting it's an interesting idea.

Okay. So what is the most precious for us? What is the most precious? It's the me. The most precious, right? Me. What I am. Who I am. I'm like this. I'm like that. I'm this. I'm that. That's the most precious. That's the identity that is, you know, being taken. Mhm. Don't take it away from me.

This is what I am. That's where the resistance comes in.

That's what it protects the identity. Cuz what are you without identity? Huh?

doesn't take away identity. Takes away the me that has it.

That's true.

Yeah. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you.

Hi, Luna. Hi. How are you? Good. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Um I had a question about if someone's going through a process um where they feel they need to go through mind understanding of um

um people relationships in their lives. closing the circle on

coming out of denial, seeing things clearly um from the past and present um whatever whether it relates to let's say abusive situations, narcissism, whatever it is, not being in denial anymore, seeing things clearly. And there's a strong desire to go through a process like this of calling things out, no longer coming and trying to make things better and trying to deny and whatever. A whole process like this. I don't know if I need to say more if you understand what I'm talking about. But um I guess for me right now that's at the forefront. I need a mind understanding. I need closure. I need to stop lying to myself or hoping that people can be different. In other words, there's a whole process I'm going through on that kind of level of the human level. And I guess my question is, is there anything I can do? Like I don't want to gaslight myself and say it's all just a thought. It's all your perception. I don't want to do that at this point right now. It's very important for me to not lie about what's happening. And I feel seeing the truth is very important because I've lied to myself for so long. I want to be clear about the situation and yet it's very confusing to me. All these things are is it just a thought or is it actually happening and all this? But even if I don't go there, it's like, is there any way that non-duality or coming to more reality can help me even while I'm going through the process? Or do you think it's better to first go through this process, understand, assimilate, integrate, and then come back to non-duality? Or is there anything where it can help me deal with like this sorrow of seeing that people who I love for so long are not capable of love or empathy or seeing them uh repeat that cycle with their own children and they live next door and I'm watching it happen in real time and it's breaking my heart. So, is there anything and I don't and I tried to spiritualize it for a while and be like, "Oh, I'll just become a floating cloud and and I'll see that there's no me and and none of this will bother me, but I'm seeing I need to resolve it on the human level." And I guess is anything on the non-dual level that can help while I process this without gaslighting myself. I don't know if that makes sense, but it makes complete sense. This is exactly the question that what is the living nonuality? What is being present? Because we can think, oh, this is just a thought or this is not happening. But that's denial. And what is really happening is what you're feeling in the body. Being honest is being honest with what you're feeling. And what helps is just knowing that it all these feelings, emotions, they come up to be felt. They come up to be noticed. They come up to be experienced. So it's okay. It's okay to feel what you feel. It's just saying, "Oh, that's just a thought." It's it's called bypassing, right? There's nobody here to feel anything. It's bypassing. Meaning that you are not accessing your body, the wisdom of the body, the emotions. So the only thing is it's not like a separate thing, a nonuality and a psychology. It's the same thing. The same thing nonuality is that everything is one. Everything is one energy. There's it's happening by itself automatically. So no separate parts. There are no separate parts.

So it includes the psychology. It includes the humanness and mess and all these patterns and essence and everything. Everything's included.

In other words, there can be truth in it. Like, can I finally put my mind to rest? Like, it's been ruminating for years. Is it me? Is it them? Is it true? Is it not? Are they good? Are they bad? Like, ruminating for years. And now I'm trying to I'm coming to a place where I can't. In other words, I'm trying to like finalize it and just trust my own perception of their behaviors and what I see there. And on the other hand, it's like, but that's just a thought. And in other words, it's just my label of their behavior or or can it be is there a truth there? And I'm kind of like wanting to contact like the best like psychiatrist or something to like validate it or something to like finally put my mind at rest or something. In other words, is it just a thought about them or is there actual such a thing as truth? Like is it true that they that is some such a thing as like narcissism true? Is that true or is it just only perceptive or a thought? So you're saying it is true. All this all these patterns, all these behaviors and people are different. Everyone is doing the best with what they got at any given moment, but what they've got is different and the conditions are different. But if somebody is showing up as narcissistic in their behavior and their relationship, that's how they show up. It's better not to deny it, to face the truth. And the problem with this is that the the the hardcore narcissist or pathological narcissist because we all have these qualities. It's just different levels of it, right?

They master manipulation and the point of that is to confuse you so you don't no longer know what is true. Yeah. So if you're in that kind of situation then it's very good idea to seek some professional help who's who knows these patterns who can tell you where to look and what to notice and make your peace with that and either either stay and knowing what's going on or get yourself distance far far away whichever works. You know there is no one rule to fit every situation. It's very situational and it's just for you to know if it's a family member. What do you do now? Yeah.

But at least then you know and then you can make peace. Yeah. So you don't think it's just in other words it's true. It's not a lie to say myself someone is a psychopath, someone is a narcissist. Like these are true things. In other words, it's not just a perception or label that is no truth in reality. In other words, it's true. It can be. Mhm. Yeah. Because if if I go around and call everyone narcissist or or some psychopath without evidence, then the problem is here, right? Mhm. Maybe I am one of those. But if these people are showing the clinical signs of it and in big doses, then it's better to know than to pretend that you don't know.

And then where does non-duality come in there? Everything's happening by itself. There's nobody inside their bag of skin or inside your bag of skin making this happen. These are patterns playing out.

like okay it just let's bring it to a very simple example of a computer system like don't know now you're on a phone on a computer but if you look at the computer there is operating system for me it's Windows okay and there are many many applications and programs that are installed in Windows and they are running and Windows is not the manager of these programs It's a space.

Windows is not managing the applications. It's a space in which they are installed. So the way we we perceive that inside here inside the body mind there is some kind of manager called me that is managing the applications

but but seeing that there's nobody there. It's just programs running, programs interacting, conditioning, conditions, circumstances, everything come together and there's something happens. It's not because somebody inside called Windows made it happen or called me made it happen. It's what's here.

And yet you say to me, it's good idea to get a therapist and decide if to get away or if it's dangerous. In other words, there still is a thought. There is a MI and action needs to be taken. So, how do I put those two together, right? The MI is not there. The programs are there. So, if there is if there is an information coming in that it's good idea to go and get a therapist and if that information is taken in and acted upon that, it's happening. If that information is rejected is not happening, there is no need to decide what's happening. But you can see what's happening

because the the to me the way that is perceived is also on the rising. It's not the manager. It's not the doer. It's not somebody here running the show.

It's one of the application.

And so that can kind of help me not get angry at them. Well, if you need to get angry, get angry. It's not managing life. There's no no managing life. You can't make a rules how it will be. It will be what it will be. But if the information is coming in now and knowing from within that I need to get to the bottom of this, that's what's happening now. and that that story will play out. Mhm. It's not a choice. It's like you didn't jump into this. It didn't decide that. It came to this and this is what's playing out. And if you look at nonuality like a concept, it's just another program running. If you see that nonuality is pointing to what is here right now and whatever is here is life. Whatever is here is happening. You are here aware of what's happening. Not like some manager that is running the show but as a space in which everything's unfolding.

There is kind of more allowing for everything to flow freely. That's that's the only thing.

It's still the show continues. Waves come in, waves leave.

It's knowing that nobody's fault. Nobody's in charge. The wave in the ocean is not in charge of the ocean.

And that may help a lot actually knowing that it's all okay. But you okay? They okay? Everyone is just ready. Are the kids okay? That's kind of what gets me cuz I'm watching it happen in real time. You know what I mean? And I feel like I'm powerless to stop it. And is there something I can do and all this? But well, it depends on the degree, right?

Yeah. No, it's too subtle for for action. You know what I mean? But um Yeah. Then yes, it's heartbreaking to watch it happen knowing how this kind of behavior affects little children.

So what do I tell myself to make that okay? Well, if it's not okay, it's not okay. Then you have to like um sugarcoat it. You see what is happening? the truth that it's okay for you to feel what you feel that that okay

and I guess when you say to me watch that it's all happening I guess then I take this like okay then I'm the witness I'm the person who's seeing so I guess I never get out of the identification but

There is just what's happening. There's not no person in between. How about that? There's no witness. And even you are not a person conceptually. Yeah. Yeah. We can talk about the concept of a person, but who's there to own it?

But who is seeing it if not all of us here on this call?

Good question. How would you say who's seeing it?

It's us guys. Or religion might say the unseen spirit that animates us or that is looking through our eyes or something. But but that still is a me. It's just an invisible me. That's a spirit. You know what I mean? That's the idea. That's the idea. Mhm. When you look in the experience

right now,

there's just seen where is the sear.

I feel like it's me in this body who's shaking my head and squinting as you talk. That's that's what I feel. But okay that sensation are you that sensation is that sensation seeing it

then I'm the one who's seeing that sensation that's where I go to you know what I mean like I'm the one who's aware of that feeling yeah yes okay I don't know if you were here or you join later there is no self at all no separate I me self at Oh, like in zero there is just what's here life. All of it life.

Two questions. Do you think that realizing that will release some suffering and make things easier? And two, I guess

I mean I guess you can't answer that. It's just could I ever see that? But I guess is it worth it? Like is it good to see that? Like does it ease things? Does it make things good?

I hear you. It's like trying to find some magic pill to make things okay. There is no magic pill to make things okay. Things are already okay. When the mindset is not okay, even that is okay. It's kind of it's kind of underlying peace with everything that is already here.

But it's not a magic pill to to stop people behaving in a certain ways or stop feeling unwanted emotions. Everything's okay. What that means is that everything whatever is here is already here. It's already allowed. It's already included.

So it's kind of and I guess my sorry it's kind of in one way yes it is a relief because you see that you are not making this happen. There is nobody to blame. there's no nobody to have I mean to own it

in that way it's easier

but on another way it's more difficult because if you remove that middle middle man or middle figure of me that supposedly is experiencing life surprise surprise you may feel more may feel more intensely more intimate.

But it's okay then. Mhm.

And I guess people people think that awakening equals no suffering or lesser suffering. But how about that the suffering was never there.

There was an idea of me suffering but the pain and discomfort and everything is continuing. She's taking that idea seeing what's actually here without that idea and everything's still here.

I guess a weird question to end with is like the reason that you do this and try to help people realize who they want to realize because you feel it is a way to lessen suffering or realize no one was ever suffering or all of this stuff or in other words is it the best way that you found to ease suffering uffing or are there other ways or is this for the love of truth or because it eases suffering? In other words, are there other ways to ease suffering which might be even better or there's no way to ease human suffering because human equals suffering and therefore we're here doing this.

That's a wonderful question. Thank you. See, I'm doing this because knowing the truth liberates.

Knowing the truth about suffering liberates.

And I just help seekers to end seeking and start looking at what is here. And when you start seeing what is here, it self adjust.

And there are so many

so many paths to arrive at at the same. But what works is looking in your own experience

and I'm here to point to that. They have to look in your own experience to find if there's a self or in general just to investigate your own experience. Everything all the answers are in your own experience. Nobody has answers for you. Like theoretically, yes, you can read a book. Practically your experience is your teacher. Your life is showing up exactly what you need to learn and every step is here for you and you're always in the right place in the right time doing the right thing.

Really? Are you sure? That sounds good. Yeah. You're always in the right time in in the right place doing the right thing.

Have a look right now. See this right here and now. This is This is it. Right here and now. This is it.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Hey, George. Hi, Lona. Hello, everyone. I came I came a bit late. I just want to follow up on what Tammy said. You say there's no doer and no chooser. And I can get that, but it seems conceptual to me. That is if I look into my own experience as you suggest it seems that there's a chooser here. It seems that I make choices and it seems that I initiate actions. How do I see through this? There are choices or in other words there's choosing. There's choosing

the the chooser is concept.

Yes. But it seems that there's a chooser. That is it seems that I am volally making a choice. That's the way it seems to be correct. It seems I look into my experience. That's the way it seems. It seems. Now what is the truth though? Because many things can seem there is choosing. Okay. If I say right or left, choose right or left. Yes. Okay. I'll choose right. Right. There's choosing. The thought came in. I choose right. Where is the chooser?

When you say the thought come came in. I know that. And I know that I do not choose my thoughts. There's no doubt about that. But logically, I'm with you. I'm on the same page with you logically. So if you're trying to somehow convince me intellectually, whatever, I've already know that, but I'm just I don't know what I can say. It's just is that the it just seems that I'm doing the choosing that I'm you know that there's a voluitional person here. It seems. That's your key word. It seems. Yes. It seems. It seems. It seems that there is a chooser when there is choosing.

Yes. But how do I get from the from the sense where it seems that there's a chooser here to I really know in my bones actually know that that's not true. How do I get to that next step? Ah here you need to look

and as you see when you look thought comes in by itself. Action happens by itself. The thought I am the chooser happens by itself.

Yes. The thought I am the chooser happens by itself. I somehow get that all thoughts happen by themselves. So I don't I don't think that I'm the thinker. Okay.

But okay, I'm still stuck in it seems that it seems and I understand what you're saying. You know what it it seems like you are stuck.

Yes, it does. It seems like you are stuck. It seems like this is a riddle like how there can be a choice without the chooser. How can there be choosing without the chooser?

Well, I think I can get that. Can there be a You say choices just happen. Well, things just happen. Okay. And it seems that I'm somehow choosing some of those. And

do you choose what's happening in the brain when the choice happen? No, I'm not choosing what's happening in the brain. I'm not choosing my heart breathing. I'm not choosing my breath.

So what what does this chooser do then?

Okay. So, what this chooser does, it seems that I made it, well, I was late today and so I made it, you know, I made a choice to log on late. Um, I made a choice to have, it's morning here. I'm in Dallas, Texas. It seems that I made a choice to have breakfast. It seems that I'm making choices to do all of those actions. That's the way it seems.

It's correct. That's how it seems. I made the choices when really it was one thing after another. It's just flowing freely

including the narrative. I made these choices.

The reason I'm laughing is sort of like, yes, you're right. You're right, Alona. Alona, yes, you're right. Well, it seems like you're stuck, but you're not stuck. Yes, it seems that I'm stuck. Okay. I don't know whether this whether it's pointless to continue on. Maybe someone else has something to contribute. But it seems that I'm stuck. And I don't think this there's anything you can say now that would make a difference if or if there is, say it. There is nobody here to get stuck. It's just a feeling, a sensation, a thought about me being stuck. Yeah. But it's more than a thought. Yeah. There's a sensation. body sensation that goes along with that stuckness. Yeah, there's a tightness. Yeah. Are you that tightness? Well, no, but that tightness seems real. Is it stuck to you?

Don't know. I can't say it's stuck to me, but it's real. That tightness is reinforcing the thought that there's the thought and there's the body sensation which interprets you know which I interpret as as being due to that thought. So there's like a maybe I really need to just look into my body and look at those body sensations. I don't know. Yeah.

Okay. Because it seems that the body sensations are maybe what's

when I say it seems that maybe it seems that because of the body sensations maybe I need to look into those more.

Yeah. Cuz when it when it seems like you're not looking,

you're thinking. Yes.

Okay. Cuz when you look look, you know, when you look and see, it doesn't seem like you see.

Yes. When I look at out at the world, the world seems real. Although I know that even that to some extent is illusury that is doesn't just produce vision accurately.

I mean this just so I read and I think and I've seen evidence that so I know even there there's a there's an illusion but that illusion doesn't seem harmful. That illusion seems very helpful. It helps me navigate the world.

Okay.

All right. Thank you. You're welcome. Great to great to talk to you. Well, I I you know, I I haven't been to the group that that many times, I uh but I have the same experience that George did and I could share my experience with it. I don't have a question, but uh it might be helpful to him because I went through the same thing. So, I don't know if that's a procedure here or or if that's whatever you want to share, please share. Okay. I I just hope it's it's it's useful. Uh I did this about I don't know maybe eight years ago with with you w with someone from the uh liberation unleashed what fact I forgot what it was. It was so long ago and I went through the whole process, the texting, and I got to the very end of it and I I said, you know, I just have this sense of self, this sense that this is a, you know, here and a there and that there's there's self here and have this sense and I didn't get to finish the process at that time because of that uh until I spoke to you and I said personally I was talking to somebody else and you said, "Oh, it's just a sense it doesn't mean anything. And I went, "Oh, in that case, I've got no problem." And that was 10 years ago. And and I still get a sense of self, but I have no doubt at all that there is. And I'm going to I'm going to just repeat this because I am a person speaking to you. All right? There's no doubt in my mind about that. But I also have no doubt and and if I may just use the words that there is no unseen spirit looking through my eyes separate from my mind and body that's perched over here or back there or making choices or doing any of this. That's a different thing. Now a sense of that will occur. And what what I mean by a sense of that because I'm quite clear on this is that I have a sense as example that there's somebody behind me. I look there's nobody behind me. Then I stop looking and I'm walking down the street. I have a sense there's somebody behind me. And I look again and there's nobody behind me. I do this enough times and I realize there's nobody behind me. It was just a sense. Okay. And the sense is nothing to do with the understanding or the seeing that there is no separate spirit looking through the body making choices. Choices happen. Seeing happens, smelling happens, feelings happen, thoughts happen, but there's nobody doing that. It's just the programs running. And I have no problem with it. And it it is a huge relief to me since that occurred, since that seeing through it occurred because nothing happened. There was nothing that disappear in the first place. But that was just such a relief. I didn't have to defend this being. I didn't have to protect this being. This being couldn't be insulted anymore. Uh this being didn't have to defend its character, its who it was because there was just nothing there. So it was just a relief and a sense of freedom and just like what nonsense what what was you know what nonsense uh but there is a person here you know people recognize me uh I live in a particular location uh my wife gets annoyed by things that this person does you know but there isn't anything separate from it uh so I I I just hope that that that's that's that's helpful. in some way. There's nothing wrong with a sense of that. There's nothing wrong with a sense of duality. There's nothing wrong with a sense of I'm here and there's a there there and a sense of time, place, and all these things. It's just sensing happening. Beautiful. Thank you. Yes.

Thank you, Cliff. Thank you. Yeah. Sensing happening, choosing happening, seeing happening. Yeah. And here we are at the end of our meeting. Ending happening.