“How Do I Awaken?” The Question That Hides an Expectation

“How do I awaken?” is the question many sincere seekers carry. Hidden inside it is often an expectation that awakening will bring permanent peace, clarity, or distance from difficult emotions.

In this live Zoom meeting, Ilona explores that expectation directly with participants. Together we look at what happens when confusion, fear, hopelessness, or inner tension are treated as a problem to get rid of. Instead of trying to escape experience, the invitation is to meet it. Again and again the inquiry comes back to something simple: is it safe to feel what is here right now?

We also explore the pressure of time, the sense of “wasting life,” and the belief that life should be different than it is. Another participant looks at the sense of control in the head and discovers something freeing: a sensation cannot control anything. It can be felt, seen, and allowed.

This episode is for you if you understand awakening intellectually, yet still feel like a separate self, still get pulled into emotions, or still search for a better moment. The conversation points to one direct truth: awakening is not awakening away from experience. It is awakening to what is here.

Music by Valdi Sabev. In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Transcript

Ilona 0:00

Awakening isn't about becoming someone new. It's about seeing through what you are not, so that you can find what you are. You're listening to Awakening Now, a podcast for those on the journey of seeing what is real and living from that recognition. This is episode number 129. How do I awaken? The question that hides an expectation. My name is Ilona Tsunaite. I am a guide and author and co-creator of Deliberation and Leash Community. And if you are in the process of awakening, the space is for you. In this episode, you'll hear a live Zoom meeting where we explore a question almost every seeker asks. How do I awaken to what I really am? When I still feel like a separate self? In this episode, you'll hear a live Zoom meeting where we explore a question almost every seeker asks. How do I awaken to what I really am when I still feel like a separate self? Together we look at the expectation hidden inside that question, and we explore what happens when confusion, resistance, and even hopelessness are allowed to be here. We also look at the pressure of time, the urge to fix life, and the sense of control that seems to live in the head. This is a simple conversation, but it goes straight to the heart of what most people are actually struggling with. Let's begin. Very warm welcome everyone. Thank you so much for showing up here today. In your busy busy life, in your busy day. It means a lot. For me it's uh such a pleasure to be with people who are open, curious, interested, searching, exploring and enjoying this time together. And let's start by tuning in. We are here. We arrived. There's nowhere else to be, there is nothing else to do, there is nothing else as important as this being here now with each other, with your own heart, with the group. And let's take them some time to settle in. Unwinding. My invitation is to find a comfortable position so that you can sit. Inhale, exhale. And just that inhale, exhale. There's nothing else to do. Everything else can wait. So good to breathe. And bringing attention into the heart. Just checking in how the heart is feeling. What's going on there in this very moment. Okay, thank you so much. We are here now. And today let's do something differently. Um let's start with questions. If you brought in a question or something that is not letting you sleep, something that has to be shared or asked or brought into light. Let's start from that and then we'll see where it goes. So whoever wants to speak, everything's welcome, everything's allowed. We can explore this together. And as this group is quite big and uh a few new people, I just want to say that when we talk with somebody, it's a one-on-one conversation, and everyone is witnessing, seeing what's going on inside of you. And once we finish, then you can comment and share, and we can discuss something about that conversation, but please do not interrupt. That's just how it goes. Okay, so whoever would like to start, please welcome. You can just unmute your mic or raise your hand, whichever way works for you. Now we start. Hi George, yes, please.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Hello, Ilona. Hello, everyone. I just have the most general of all, I think most general of all possible questions. How do I awaken to the truth of who I really am? That is, I can intellectually understand that, but I still feel myself as a separate self. So let's say, how do I and think of this is something I can do? So anyhow, that's my question. What what what can be done here?

Ilona 6:08

How about nothing?

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Yes. What I've done, I've tried. No, I've tried doing nothing. I've actually uh I set a timer on my phone. It goes off every 10 minutes. Sometimes I'm in the other room, I don't hear it, sometimes I ignore it. But when I hear it, I just stop and do nothing for maybe 30 seconds or so.

Ilona 6:41

Okay, well, we have to really look at this. What is there that wants to awaken? What is awakening? What are you waiting for? How it will look like? Because the biggest thing, in a way, is expectations. If we if we're really honest here, there is nothing that is asleep. You are here, right? Are you here?

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Yes, I am here, and you know you are here, and I know I'm here, right? I know that I'm aware.

Ilona 7:17

What's missing?

SPEAKER_03 7:20

What's missing is the awareness of being aware during the course of daily living, or let me say it another way. What's missing is peace of mind.

Ilona 7:32

Well, that's got nothing to do with awakening. That's a nice expectation, and that's why people usually generally go into searching or seeking because there is an idea that once I awaken, the life is going to be peaceful, or there will be less disturbances, or will be, I don't know, I call it just generally happier after. But peace doesn't just come because you know what you are. Peace is the absence of noise in the head. Noise, there is a lot of noise, and then the noise is old programs that haven't resolved, it's all the beliefs that are still waiting to be seen through, all the tensions and emotions that haven't been allowed to be felt. The peace is death.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Okay.

Ilona 8:57

Okay, if we look at this ocean, let's say if you look at the ocean, and sometimes there are waves, sometimes there are no waves, sometimes there are big waves, sometimes it's just dead quiet. What is peace if you look at the ocean? What is peace? How do you see that?

SPEAKER_03 9:16

Well, the ocean seems rather peaceful just as it is, except when it isn't. I mean, sometimes the ocean is often often the ocean is just peaceful. Sometimes during a storm, the ocean is turbulent.

Ilona 9:30

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

But I'm not sure what you're asking about the ocean.

Ilona 9:38

Because ocean is ocean. With and without waves. Now, the way the mind imagines peace is that there are no waves. There's more peaceful.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

No, I'm I'm not imagining that there are no thoughts. I'm not I'm not I'm not expecting that. Um I'm expecting a distance between self. Search for the video soundbar in the Bluetooth settings on your device. Hearing somebody.

Ilona 10:18

Uh-huh. Me too. Just gonna mute everyone. Should be okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

Okay, so I'm expecting a distance between let's say I and emotions and thoughts and all this stuff going on. I know that stuff is going on. And I guess what I'm expecting is a distance. That is for me to be able to stand back and notice. Oh, hey, you know, now this is going on. Oh, now George is doing this. Oh, George is confused right now. Oh. As opposed to getting lost in it. Worry, confusion. For me, fear of death. I'm getting old.

Ilona 11:23

Me too. Everyone.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yes, everyone, but I but I'm actually feeling my body going downhill and my mind going downhill. But anyhow, that's another story.

Ilona 11:38

Okay, so what if can peace is not in trying to get quiet moment? Peace is allowing everything to be as it is.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Okay, I can get that. Peace is allowing everything to be as it is. But now my question is, how do I do that? You can't I seem to be resisting, and I'm not allowing things to be that as they are.

Ilona 12:10

Okay, let's see. Right here, right now. Right here, right now. Is it okay to feel what you are feeling?

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Well, no. Right now I'm well, in terms of actually feeling body sensations fine, I'm not in pain, but I'm feeling confusion now.

Ilona 12:33

Okay. Is it okay to feel confusion now?

SPEAKER_03 12:40

To tell the truth, no.

Ilona 12:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

I mean, I can say it's okay, because I mean, you know, confusion is confusion, but it's not okay. I really don't like being confused. I'd rather I'd rather not be confused.

Ilona 12:53

I agree. But the confusion is here.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Confusion is here, definitely.

Ilona 13:05

Okay, let's just be confused for a little bit. It's okay. Maybe it's not pleasant or wanted or comfortable, but let's just feel confused for a little bit. Just allowing that confusion to be here.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

The confusion is here, but I'm not allowing I guess it's hard for me to allow it. I sort of want it to go away.

Ilona 13:40

Yeah, I can notice that. That's the usual thing. Anything that is not uh comfortable, we want this to go away, that's okay. Okay, yeah, but it's just like looking at the ocean and saying these big waves are not okay, so they should be going away. Well then I will have peace, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

But that analogy is imperfect because I don't care if the waves go away or not, they have no effect on me.

Ilona 14:18

Right, but the confusion, the wave of confusion is here.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Yes, the wave of confusion is here, and I don't want it to be here. I want to know what the hell's going on, I don't want to be confused.

Ilona 14:33

Right. This is exactly what is going on. Yes, yes, there we go. It's okay, can be here.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

I don't know what else to say or do. I am confused, I don't want to be confused. I could just stop speaking, let someone else speak. I don't know.

Ilona 15:07

Okay, but how about just for a little bit? Let's be confused. Not fighting it, not trying to get rid of it, just noticing the resistance that says I don't like this, but it's still it's okay to feel what you're feeling.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

I can see that feeling confused is a lot better than feeling in pain.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

So that you know I don't know.

Ilona 15:53

Yes, yes, yes. Let's just be hopeless now. Let's be hopeless all that big awakening story stories. Oh I'm sorry. It's uh a hope to get out of the confusion hopelessness not to feel that but it's here.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Yes, it's here. Um let me just take another look. So what's here is confusion, the not wanting to be confused, that's the rejection of confusion. No, I don't want this. I want to everything to be clear. So those are all present. Right now, question is can I accept all of that? Can I accept the confusion? Can I accept the not wanting the confusion? I really don't like this confusion.

Ilona 17:23

Yes, let's agree with that one. Let's just start step by step. I agree. I don't like this confusion.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Yes, I don't like this confusion.

Ilona 17:32

I agree. Sucks.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

There's one way I can stop this confusion. I could just stop talking and let you talk to somebody else. And I'll be concentrated on that conversation, not on this.

Ilona 17:53

All right. Well, now this is trying to escape it.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yes, that's trying to escape it.

Ilona 18:00

Yes. It's too much. This confusion is too much. Yeah, but what if it's okay to feel it? Making peace with it. Peace with whatever is being felt.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Yes. What if it's okay to make peace with confusion? What if it's okay that that peace doesn't come right away?

Ilona 18:38

Yeah. Is it okay to feel what you're feeling?

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Well, I don't know when you say is it okay? I don't want it.

Ilona 18:53

It doesn't come to be liked or disliked, it's already here. It doesn't come to be accepted or rejected, it's already here. That sensation in the body that feeling that energy is already here. It's not asking for your permission or liking it. It's not a Facebook post that you have to like it or love it. It's just here to be felt fully.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Yes, you are exactly right. What's here is here. Okay. What's here is here. Right. And it's insanity to reject what's here.

SPEAKER_05 19:41

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

No, is it okay to be insane? Okay.

Ilona 19:48

But is it okay to feel that confusion? Oh, that energy. We don't even need to name it truly. Just whatever feeling or energies here. Is it okay? Is it safe?

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Well, it's definitely safe. Not gonna kill me. Okay.

Ilona 20:19

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

I think I'm done.

Ilona 20:21

This is where the peace is. Being okay with what's here. It's not peace from unwanted. It's peace with what's here. It's not awakening from unwanted, it's awakening to what's here.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Yes, I can see. Number one, what's here is here. Right. And number two is that there's nothing to do about what's here. I mean, I can take action, whatever, but in terms of emotions, what's here is here.

Ilona 21:13

Yeah, we'll go. Yes, what's here is here.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

And as I say, it's an insanity to reject what's here. I mean, I cannot like it. What's here is here. Okay. I think I'm done for today.

Ilona 21:34

Okay, wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Okay, thank you, Lona. Thank you for everyone else's putting up with this.

Ilona 21:42

Thank you, George. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Thank you.

Ilona 22:01

Okay, swell. Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

Technical problems, so here I am.

Ilona 22:26

Welcome, welcome.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

Nobody else raised their hand, so I thought uh if I'm attending the call or not. Like recently my life's been turning out uh a little better, more peaceful. Also reflected in my surroundings here.

Robert 22:45

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

I'm uh traveling traveling in Finland. Uh sort of nature here. It's almost like with George, but for me it's still this feeling of uh kind of no, I'm not the body, but every time I look at the body, I'm still a bit disgusted and like this ugliness feeling I still have. But it's a that's no question, really. It's like the same as with George. I just have to uh be with the feeling.

Ilona 23:23

Do you want to be with that feeling altogether now? Whatever you're feeling.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

It's like it became tiny, really, but it's still a bit bit here, yeah. A bit of a contraction in the throat, like not wanting to be seen, you know. Like life is already becoming better, but I see if I trust even more and if I accept even more, there's like unlimited potential, really. I've been uh so small on my life. Yeah, I'm rambling a little bit, but for example, I think oh now I'm filling, that's great, but I still don't have a camper then. I want a camper then why can't I buy a pamper then? I don't have enough money. What's my question? I don't know. I'll let you speak now, I guess.

Ilona 24:35

Nice to see you. Okay, we have some raised hands. Um first one was John. Then I saw Tammy and then Lauren.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

I think hi Lona. Hi, John What occurred to me was um recently was um was not knowing and being okay with not knowing the more I see not knowing is okay. Um but mind will jump in and um there are sensations, whatever, in the body and a lot of fear and all that, but um I kind of ask myself the question what is aware is already here and is not fighting or wanting to change anything. And can I like the sea, you know, if um big waves small, you know, you just they're all allowed because there's if we allow it there's no resistance there to what's happening but I've kind of yeah, I've seen this not knowing, you know, and you can't once you see it. Um it seems like a safer place actually to not know.

Ilona 26:48

At least it's honest.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Yeah.

Ilona 26:52

Don't need to pretend or hold up to appearances, yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

It's like um one minute though, I'm on the edge of certain things and it's afraid to let go. But then uh that that in itself is a resistance kind of yeah. So t to allow, you know, as you said, allow everything to be as it is. Um and I just think you know, give it space. You know, because there's the space of this room, but space is everywhere. And just allow it in that space, you know. I just imagine there's far more space here.

Ilona 27:51

I need to imagine it, it's here. Look, yeah, we can look already here. We can look now together, okay, John?

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah.

Ilona 27:59

I could just taking a breath. Breathing in, breathing out. Breathing in, breathing out. And then there is so much going on that you can say there are colours and sounds and sensations and thoughts and images and emotions, everything's going on. But the breathing is is here. You can notice that every thought that comes in it has some kind of flavor or vibration or energy or emotion and just you can play with different words and see how that shows up in the body, what sensations come up. And you notice that there is space in which it's happening. Like, okay, breathing in, breathing out. And then if I say one word and you can see how that word rings through what kind of waves, what kind of um emotion comes in with this word resisting resisting can feel that in in the space. Right? Yeah, before that word there was your space, now there's resisting. And now let's allow another word accepting accepting, and just feel how that lands in the system and what waves, emotions, maybe stories, maybe memories come up in that space. Accepting.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah, that feels good.

Ilona 29:58

Uh-huh. Okay. Now let's put another word in, and this word is allowing. Notice the same space, different word, different response, different wave. But this allowing to compare to accepting. Can see the difference, right? And I have one more word to throw in into the space and just see how that how that works through the system through the energy. Another word is enjoy. Enjoy. So the space doesn't come and go. It's the experiences that leave the wake or leave the ripples of just a word. Just a word. So okay, we can call this space not knowing or just being open. Calm open. And then whatever is rippling through, whatever is going through that space, then the it grabs attention and it becomes small. It takes it's not just becomes small, it becomes like really here, really in the face. And then that space is forgotten. But it can only be in the space. Lovely lovely to hear your voice, not seeing you again.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah. Lovely to see you again.

Ilona 32:33

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Thank you.

Ilona 32:46

Hi, Tammy.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Hi Lona. Um, good to see you. I think I just wanted to check in, say kind of where I think I'm at, and hear if you have anything to say that could be helpful. Um thank you. Yeah, I think um at the beginning, the first times I met you on these calls, you had said something like sometimes the system needs to unwind before like something can take hold, um, before something can be seen, before something can sit, if it is seen. I think that's where I'm at. Um so you know, allowing everything to be as it is or whatever, that's more applying to the human level, seeing beliefs, seeing fears, seeing like terror held in the body, all kinds of stuff, and just um it's unraveling a little bit. I definitely feel different than I did, I don't know, a year ago or whatever. It's very, very different. Especially in the last six weeks, there's been a lot of accelerations of that, I think. I don't know, I felt like a strong prayer to like be free of that of stuff. And I thought that would look like, oh, I'm floating above everything, everything's at peace. But instead, um things kind of crashed into me and taught me very, very strong lessons. Um heartbreaking, but also I was happy for it. Just things that needed to be let go. Um it seems like an ongoing thing. It feels like I don't know, maybe never ending or something. Although I I still hope it'll come to a place where it's easeful and not, you know what I mean? Like it keeps on going, but it's already at a different place. And I already feel those moments sometimes, like you know, something spilled the other night, and I was going to go into like bashing myself, and then I was gonna go into the opposite of like, oh, let's take this as a spiritual moment, and then it was just quiet. And I was picking up the stuff off the floor, and there was quiet for a moment. It was it was really lovely. So those kind of little moments where it's um neither high nor low, just simple has been um lovely. And then there are other times of like still the huge momentum of a lifetime since a child of what is this world? Why is it all created? Why am I here? I must make use of my time, don't waste your life, that kind of thing. What should I do? Indecision, huge um drive. It's still um on the one hand, and then a desire to just drop into peace on the other hand, and I'm neither, I'm in neither place. I'm kind of in the bubbles of the middle of like not fully revving up to like go into the mind again and figure out because it's been years of like that, and but not sinking fully into like peace. There are still contractions in the body, it's not fully letting go. And in the in the midst of that, I'm kind of going about my day, questioning things here and there, doing what I can to um whether it's psychological or seeing through beliefs, whatever. And I would say I'm doing my best, but I'm always doing my best. It's just that things seem to be a bit opening in the last six weeks, more than they have for a while, and and definitely some relief around terror, around old, old beliefs that were held of how things will be horrible if I'm not, you know, constantly very tense. I don't know, so some some relief there and some seeing through things, and just the body was like, ah um, and then in terms of yeah, so there's that and it's good, and it still feels like there's so much more to go. And then on the human level, there's still a lot of like, how should my life go? And then in the third area, there still feels like this, like, you know, the no-sell for no two things, or everything is just this field of whatever or something that I still I I look at, you know, little inquiries or or videos from time to time, but I'm not aggressively pursuing that or anything. I kind of try and glance when I can. So that's kind of the three areas that I feel are happening.

Ilona 36:53

Oh, well, I I loved what you said that you're doing the best you can at any time. Let's acknowledge that. That this is unfolding exactly right. What needs to happen happens. What needs to be seen comes up, what needs to be said comes up. What needs to leave leaves by itself. So there is no mistake. And there is no need to validate that. It's just what's here, and that is exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

I guess it just I feel like it's very hard to focus my brain, and I just feel like I waste so much time in a day, and I just wish all this could go, just like, you know, some people seem just very clear and wise and short. They're like they've got they know that it's like, yes, this is life. They're kind of. I guess I just wish that on all three levels, um, there could just be clarity and insight rather than wasting of so much time and indecision or like design throughout the buttons see that there is no wasting time. Oh, but there is Ilona. I can sit on the couch for hours, you know, or debating what to do, or uh it could be better spent being useful to myself and others. I just don't know how to do it, but I wish I could be wiser, I don't know, something focused.

Ilona 38:30

Maybe that moment when you are sitting on a sofa is exactly right. There's all these ideas about how this should be different, is running away, not allowing this to be exactly as it is. So what you are sitting on a sofa, it's okay to sit on a sofa, it's okay to just feel and relax and not go anywhere with the mind or the right. But I'm not relaxed.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

In other words, I'm neither at peace nor figuring it out. I'm like in no man's land, so that's a waste of time. You know what I mean? Like, I wish either I could fully relax and be just at peace and enjoying.

Ilona 39:11

But you need maybe you need to see that this tension here is still here, and it's okay. It's all okay. There's nothing wrong. It doesn't need to be fixed. Just enjoy sitting on the sofa. There's nowhere to go. It's not that you are doing it, but you are seeing this in the in the moment as it's here. There's nothing wrong with the way life is expressing in that moment. Again, allowing it, enjoying it. What would happen if you sit on a sofa for three hours and enjoy it?

SPEAKER_01 40:08

That kind of happened the other day. In other words, before work, I usually waste like four hours, and I'm like, I could make it productive, and I scream at myself the whole time, but I still don't do anything productive. And then the other day I was like, I didn't scream at myself, and I still left late, and everything was still, I didn't do anything productive and I left late, but I was kind of just humming and singing, and I wasn't screaming at myself. Oh my god, what happened? Yeah, nothing much different, which was interesting, but um like it wasn't that I became more productive or enlightened or something, it was still a waste of time. I just wasn't screaming at myself the whole time. But yeah, okay.

Ilona 40:47

What if you stop thinking that you can waste time?

SPEAKER_01 40:58

There's yeah, there's still some huge urgency around. Oh my gosh, we have this one lifetime, make it amazing, make it great, save yourself, save others. I don't know, something like this in the background.

Ilona 41:08

Yes, it's like rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. Not enough time. There's not enough time. What if there is no time at all? It's just what's happening here. It's that mental time, it's a pressure. It's yeah, it's a reason to, you know, whip yourself because it's not enough time.

SPEAKER_05 41:34

Yeah.

Ilona 41:36

How would it be how would your life be if if it was enough time for everything? Enough time to sit on a sofa, enough time to go to work, enough time to just do whatever, whatever is happening. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

I still don't like waste. Like, in other words, either either use the time to awaken or to be at peace or to rest, but if you're still time to awaken.

Ilona 42:04

You can't do anything to awaken. The awakening is out of the head, into what's here, happening so many times. In and out, in and out, in and out, like breath. How can you waste time? How can you do anything? It's now a now and now and now. Can you waste time right now? What would that look like?

SPEAKER_01 42:43

I guess like now my brain isn't focused enough. I'm like, make use of this time with Ilona or make use of the time on the couch. It's always like, do you know what I mean? Like either be at peace or be productive, but just sitting with a fuzzy mind that can't collect its thoughts and a little bit of pain and tension, it's like, why? Why be either joyful or productive? But sitting in that no man's land feels like a waste, yeah.

Ilona 43:07

What if you can enjoy in the no man's land? Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Like not scream at myself for it.

Ilona 43:18

Yeah. Would that be okay? Just to try and see what it's like to enjoy this being in no man's land.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

You don't have this pressure of like life is precious and it's just one time, let's make it awesome. You don't feel this kind of like, oh my gosh.

Ilona 43:38

No. There's nowhere to go.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Mm-hmm.

Ilona 43:49

See if if you look at life like music or like a dance, there is no rush to play the next note. Or to to move legs quicker or swing quicker. Because it all goes with the rhythm, it all goes exactly right. There's no destination to get there. To get where? To the end.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

To get out of suffering, to help others out of suffering, to make sure the rest of my life is healthy and happy, like that kind of stuff.

Ilona 44:27

Hmm. But you can't rush through life and think that this is going to help. Yeah. Taking a breath. That's all. One breath at a time. What's here? What's here? What's here?

SPEAKER_05 44:45

Yeah.

Ilona 44:47

Hmm. Sitting on a sofa here. Nice. Love it. I know what you mean by pressure of time. And I used to be pressured by that, but truly things are happening and sometimes there is a rush, rush, rush. But there's always enough time. Even for the rush.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Or just like. I guess there's always a thought that things could be awesome. And when they're not, it bothers me. So if people like yell at their kids or be unkind, or if I'm not at peace, all these things feel like uh this sense of uh, what a like, oh, you just want to get in there and make like it could be so awesome. Why is it not always awesome? That doesn't make sense.

Ilona 45:44

It cannot be always awesome, many. You cannot control the people or things. Some moments are beautiful, some moments can be really horrifying and ugly and disgusting. So, why are you okay with that? What's the option?

SPEAKER_01 46:04

To go crazy with that. You're right. This is true. I guess but to try and change it, like at least like rail against it, I guess it's a waste of it.

Ilona 46:13

So let's say here's here's a wall and it's not moving, and I'm going to bang my head against it, trying to get rid of it. Does the wall care? No.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

You might make a dent. I always feel like maybe I could make a dent, you know.

Ilona 46:30

Does the wall care about the dent or the the blood that is coming out of your head onto the wall? It's just you hurting you. So this this this moment should be awesome, and it's not awesome. So let's you know try to whip myself or whip others because it's not awesome, but it is like it is, and then fighting that or as I say, banging your head against that is not going to change what is happening, but it causes pain here, and that's optional.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

I mean, you can look at the wall, see the wall, touch the wall, and I guess it feels sometimes if I whip myself up into enough of a frenzy, things change a little bit. Yes, it's not sustainable, but you know what I mean? Like when you get activated enough, things can change, but again, compared to the enormity of life, you're almost doing nothing, so it's not worth it. But you can't say that there's no change, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know.

Ilona 47:35

That's just a story to justify the the pain that is being caused by resisting what's here.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

To say that it's worth it.

Ilona 47:49

Yeah, like it's valuable and it makes me a better person or whatever story is going on.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

But it does change things a little bit and aren't I obligated to, you know, give my whole self to at least change things a little, you know what I mean?

Ilona 48:04

Like what needs to change will change.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Yeah.

Ilona 48:09

What needs to come in comes in. What needs to leave leaves. It's more like thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, yes, please. Yeah. Sometimes it's very difficult. The gift is there, it's just receiving it is difficult.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

You mean all of it is a gift, the the horrible stuff and the good stuff? Yeah. Yeah. And I need to do nothing except be present and see.

Ilona 48:47

Well, what else can you do?

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Again, get really activated and become a tornado to shake things a little bit, you know what I mean? But yeah. That's what I yeah.

Ilona 49:03

That's the old way.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Yes.

Ilona 49:06

That's the old way.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

And is the new bait is the new weight better for me and better for the world or is it just less painful?

Ilona 49:23

It's just seeing what it is. And seeing that all that comes and goes comes and goes by itself. That the idea that there is something, someone like an entity in charge living inside a bag of skin that makes things happen. That is the one that is running on a frenzy. But when you see that everything's coming and going by itself, there's freedom. Not to bank the head against the wall in that way.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

I guess I a little bit see what you're saying, but there's still a feeling that if again, if I get really activated, then maybe I could make my life slightly better than it would have been if I just observed the coming and going. You know what I mean? There's still this idea.

Ilona 50:31

It's not about just observing, but from that place where you're not wasting your energy on trying to change what cannot change. There is a different kind of action. There is a movement, there is there is a change, but from a calm, spacious state. And maybe that movement is more inspired rather than whipped, driven, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

I I have tasted what you're saying for seconds here and there, moments here and there, and um it's it's very hard because it's it's all fighting within me, those two ways, and so I'm like in the bubbles of the middle. So that's all. But um and I think also it's a little bit of a belief for me at this point of like, well, everything's just happening. I I've seen it in moments, but you know, it's still like choosing to believe that rather than actually seeing that in every moment. But um, but but there is some allowing of things to arise and and daring to see if that's okay. And so I guess that's where I kind of am. But um anyway, yeah.

Ilona 51:43

Yeah, well, as you said, it's an unwinding. So whatever has been tight and knotted is going to get undone, and you are not outside of that happening. Whatever is happening here is is part of that. That's how it shows up.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

And is there anything you would say to me that I'm doing wrong or anything to think about that could help, or just let it all happen and and I'm okay? Like, or anything helpful that you could think to say. I don't know.

Ilona 52:11

Tabi, you don't need anyone's permission or anyone's validation. Are you okay? I'm not saying not to validate you, I'm saying you don't need it. You don't need it from me, you don't need it from anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

Yeah. Well, thank you. These things have not gone as I thought they would, but um, it's been beautiful, especially in the last six weeks, and I hope to keep uh unfolding. So just a lot of gratitude.

SPEAKER_05 52:48

Thank you. Thank you.

Ilona 52:57

Okay, a sip of tea, and then we'll speak to Lauren.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

And I have to jump off, Ilona. Sorry, thank you.

Ilona 53:15

Hi, hi Lauren.

SPEAKER_06 53:18

Good to meet you, Ilona. Good to be here. Um, so I have found that the sense of me is just this perception of control or um like resistance, and it's like I I'm seeing that. Um, it feels very concentrated in my head, like things are reorganizing, but it's like it's kind of it's like it meets everything that's happening in my experience. Like when you were doing that dropping the words exercise with John. It's like I started, I liked that experience, and then this that sense that perception of control wants to like grab it and it and it wants to kind of like buffer me from sensations, especially like pleasurable sensations or more of an expanded like sense. So I guess I'm just wondering, like it seems like there's nothing I can do to you know, like stop that. And it does, it does seem it's the it's the whole I that I always thought I was.

Robert 54:30

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 54:31

Um so I'm just wondering, like, is this part of the the process? And I just continue to just to see that as it's like working itself out, yeah, and we can look directly at it.

Ilona 54:47

How do you know that it's a sense of me?

SPEAKER_06 54:55

Because it feels like it's in control, it feels like it's in control.

unknown 55:01

Yeah.

Ilona 55:02

What what is it in control of right now?

SPEAKER_06 55:07

Like my it controls my expression or like the extent of what I'm allowed to feel like it takes a lot of attention, it just takes a lot of attention, so it's like I'm feeling that instead of feeling more of like what I was feeling a moment ago.

Ilona 55:36

Okay, if you close your eyes for a look at just clear with that, if you close your eyes and look at that energy or that sensation, just locate it.

SPEAKER_06 55:54

You feeling it? Yeah, it feels like concentrated in the head.

Ilona 55:59

Uh-huh. Where in the top head or low like by the forehead, kind of yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 56:04

Yeah, like by the eyes and the forehead.

Ilona 56:07

Okay. What if it's just a muscular tension? Like your muscles, or your you know, something getting tight that is that you is that what you are? This muscular tension?

SPEAKER_06 56:29

No, but it seems dynamic, it seems like it's it's it's reacting to everything.

Ilona 56:37

Sure. The skin reacts as well. I I don't call this this thing me or the sense of self, even though you know it goes around, touches things, and responds, reacts to that. Reacts But I call don't call it this a sense of me. This is what I am. Like there is receptivity, there is perceiving, there is sensitivity, there is aliveness that opens, contracts the sense of movement. But that sensation just comes and goes. Or is that what you are?

SPEAKER_06 57:32

No, I mean, I guess I got this sense that it's not like so much coming and going, like it gets more intense or less intense, but it's like it's like always there. It's kind of like like when the sky is overcast and it's like the continuous clouds. Like I know the blue skies behind it, but it's like this continuous.

Ilona 57:50

What happens when you go to sleep?

SPEAKER_05 57:55

Like it's there right before right before I fall asleep, and then you wake up and it comes on. Yeah, I can feel it coming on too.

SPEAKER_06 58:05

Yeah, it's a lot of thinking too with it.

Ilona 58:09

Right, but well, you say you feel it, you see it, you acknowledge it.

SPEAKER_06 58:15

It's not you, yeah, it's a sensation, yeah, true, and I guess there's like a big story around making it wrong, you know, because it feels so tight and it feels so controlling, but it's like stories.

Ilona 58:33

Now, can a sensation control anything?

SPEAKER_05 58:39

No, but it can make things come out weird.

Ilona 58:46

What can the sensation control?

SPEAKER_06 58:54

It seems like it can control how I express myself because it's coming through sensation. So, like if a sensation's feeling tight, it's kind of like the the expression's coming out in that way.

Ilona 59:08

But it's not controlling it, it's just part of it.

unknown 59:18

That's so helpful.

Ilona 59:21

Sensation cannot control anything, it's it's being seen, it's witnessed, it's observed. It's already happened. It's not doing anything. And you're not doing it either. It's happening by itself.

SPEAKER_05 59:42

That's so cool. Yeah, I can feel that opening my head. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:07

Yeah, sorry uh the second time, but I think there was a slight misunderstanding. I kind of wanted to go into a brief exchange with you. Sure. Okay, but I want to look with you at the sense of doership now because it came to me that all the stress in my life, like I said earlier, I've been traveling around Finland, but it wasn't it wasn't always as chill as now. It was a lot of stress, like what do I book, where do I go? I was freaking out and spending too much money and blah. But the whole stress comes from the idea that I'm the decider, the doer. I have to make a decision, I have to know where to go next. And uh but I mean I heard it a million times, like you are not the doer, it's all happening. But yeah, we can look at that a bit deeper.

Ilona 1:01:08

So what now we can look at this that how does a decision happen? What happens first? Is there maybe an impulse desire? Some kind of something inspires or something is driving. Some impulse arises. Do you decide that?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:48

There are thoughts arising. Sometimes they say, Oh, I would do this.

Ilona 1:01:54

Yes, but we're not talking about thought, we're talking about an impulse or desire or something that comes up before even thoughts come in. How do you know where you want to go next?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:08

I have no idea what I'm doing, to be honest.

Ilona 1:02:11

Right, right. But at some point, at some point it becomes, hmm, let's go there. And then the thoughts come in, and then the decisions help on a mental level. But that was already done. The impulse was already here.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:36

Um I've realized it was never my decision, basically. Right. I thought it was my decision, but it was just a thought it's yes.

Ilona 1:02:55

So really it's not a choice what you want.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:01

Yeah, that's not a choice what I want.

Ilona 1:03:02

Yeah, it's given, it it arises, it comes in by itself.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

That's true, it's very true.

Ilona 1:03:10

And then the next layers intention like to go there or not to go there. That's an intention. If there is an intention to go, then the thoughts come in and say, Oh, we need to do this, book these tickets, or blah blah blah, planning everything. But it's already done. If you if you have a desire that comes up, it's not going to disappear unless it's met or fulfilled, or there are actions taken to close that gap because the the desire wanting something is like I need to get this, and that that when that happens, the thought says, Oh, I decided that I wanted that, I wanted that. But what did the want come in? Can you want whatever you want?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

Oh yeah. That's like Schopenhauer said, you can you can do what you want, but you cannot want what you want. Well you cannot cannot even do what you want, actually. Not not always at least. Yeah, I'm pretty empty in the head, I don't know. Like talking, talking is just happening as well. Yes I feel like this the topic is always safety again, you know. This being the doer, being the controller is uh connected to safety somehow.

Robert 1:04:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:55

Safety is uh fundamental safety is not found as long as I believe I still believe I'm this body because it's not safe to be a body. Of course it's not very safe to be a thing. I think I'm a thing. To be a thing is not good.

Ilona 1:05:15

So you're not thinking, you're thinking. Thinging yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:21

Turn yourself into a thing, yeah. 80 kilos, 160 pounds, whatever.

Ilona 1:05:30

Did you decide that? Did you choose that?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:35

No.

Ilona 1:05:37

Can you see that it's all given?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:42

The body is given, yeah. I didn't birth myself.

Ilona 1:05:45

Right. Are you inside the body?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:50

No, not really. There's emotions inside the body, and I identify with them.

Ilona 1:05:56

Are you outside the body?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:03

Uh also not I don't know.

Ilona 1:06:08

What's going on here? What is the body? Yeah, what is this thing called body?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:14

Well if you look at it with closed eyes, it's just energy.

Ilona 1:06:18

Mm-hmm. And with eyes open, it's not just energy.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:22

Yeah, well, it is also but you look at it and then you think like, oh what the fuck, you know. Let's say if you look with open eyes, like there's more thoughts active. If you close the eyes, it's easier to see it's just uh some kind of energy sensation.

Ilona 1:06:41

Okay, let's close the eyes for a little bit and just see what is that that space again. We talked a little earlier about the space, openness, just openness, and then all these sensations are here. All these sensations have got a name, it's called body, and you see them, feel them, you know of them, you are here, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:23

There are the body sensations, and then there's this uh contraction in my throat area.

Ilona 1:07:29

So this is also here uncomfortable. It's okay, it can be here too.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:43

Like my attention is always drawn to this, yeah.

Ilona 1:07:46

Because that that place is asking or calling for attention, it's calling that attention, it's like magnet, so let's give it attention. Is it okay to feel it?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:19

Yeah, like George said, it's not gonna kill me.

Ilona 1:08:22

Yeah, it's not gonna kill you.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:25

Doesn't need to be pleasant, it's not here to be like but some things I do that uh to avoid it could kill me, like drinking too much alcohol occasionally.

Ilona 1:08:37

Yeah, yeah. But now is it safe to feel it?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, it is right.

Ilona 1:08:57

Then you don't need to control it, don't need to do anything about it, you can just feel it.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:10

Seems to spawn these thoughts, or maybe it's the other way around. Connected with this strong topic of uh not good enough. Hmm, I'm not good enough.

Ilona 1:09:21

Like can you tell that energy, that energy in the throat? You are just as good as you are, you're welcome to be here. You are more into it.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:35

I can't remember that much.

Ilona 1:09:37

Yeah, you are just good as as good as you are.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:41

You are just as good as you are, you're welcome here.

Ilona 1:09:45

You belong, you belong. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:55

Thank you for being here, and thank you for waiting. Thank you for waiting. I mean, it's clear it has to be a part of me, so I've split myself from this part somehow. Well, it's part of the energy system, definitely feels that strange right now.

Ilona 1:10:30

Yes, welcome home, welcome, welcome. Welcome home, you belong.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:36

Welcome home, you belong. Something in me wants to organize everything mentally again or something.

Ilona 1:10:46

Thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:51

Thank you for doing that.

Ilona 1:10:54

Just acknowledging all this work that the system is doing by itself without you.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:04

Topic of safety a hundred percent. Safety, safety, yes. The thinking is also there for safety, organizing, categorizing.

Ilona 1:11:18

Yes, and I'm safe now.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:27

It was a little joke when it's a very safe country.

Ilona 1:11:30

Yeah. And is it safe to feel while you're feeding?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:51

Very energetic, but yeah, it's safe.

Ilona 1:11:54

It's safe, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:56

Safe.

Ilona 1:11:57

Then there is nothing to do about that. You can just feel cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:06

Okay, but I think it's enough for right now.

Ilona 1:12:12

Just just a little bit of safety. It's still safe, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:15

It's still safe, yeah.

Ilona 1:12:17

Yeah, it's still safe.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:54

Any other hands up? No, no hands up. Put your hands up and I go. Well, apparently it was meant for me tonight, today. Oh yeah. All right, but I'd I'd rather I'd rather go right now.

Ilona 1:13:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:20

Okay, thank you. What do you want to do? Kung Fu. Okay. Bye-bye. See you next time, maybe.

Ilona 1:13:33

See you next time. In the space as the space breathing in, breathing out. Nowhere to go. No rush. Nothing to achieve. The mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. It's all these currents. And there is a relationship with these currents. I like it, I don't like it, this shouldn't be happening. But here, just being open, slowing down. I can see them. And enjoy them. This is this is what being alive is. So it's going to come out on Saturday. It's awakening to, awakening from, awakening here and there and there. It's kind of a nice explanation, exploration, and explanation to to recognize where you are. Because we are all in a different place. And I loved it. But um this will come out sometime in the next couple of weeks. So something to watch out for for entertainment, and um, yeah, and then I will see you in a month on a third Thursday, as usual. I will continue exploring or just being here, enjoying the space, and thank you very much for showing up today and being here with all these wins. And thank you for people who spoke.