The Message the Seeker Cannot Use, with Jim Newman

In this episode of Awakening Now, I speak with Jim Newman, a well-known voice in radical nonduality.

Jim shares one of the most uncompromising messages in the spiritual world: there is no separate self, no path, no one becoming awakened, and nothing to attain.

Together, we explore seeking, liberation, free will, embodiment, and the challenge of speaking about what cannot be grasped conceptually.

This conversation may bring relief, curiosity, frustration, resistance, or a sense of recognition. Rather than deciding what to think, notice how it lands in you.

What happens when the seeker encounters a message it cannot use?

 Jim Newman, a well-known voice in radical nonduality. For the past ten years, he has shared a message that challenges many traditional spiritual teachings, pointing to the absence of a separate self and the immediacy of what is already present. His approach is direct, uncompromising, and often provocative, inviting listeners to question some of their most fundamental assumptions about identity and awakening. 

Music by Valdi Sabev. In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Transcript

Ilona 0:00

Awakening isn't about becoming someone new. It's about seeing through what you are not. You are listening to Awakening Now, a podcast for the seeker in the process of rediscovering what is real and living from that recognition. This is episode number 130. The message the seeker cannot use. With Jim Newman. My name is Ilona Ciunaite. I am a guide, an author, and co-creator of the Liberation Alleash Community. And if you are in the process of awakening, the space is for you. For the past 14 years, I have been guiding and supporting seekers in discovering peace and freedom through direct experience. My guest today is Jim Newman, a well-known voice in radical non-reality. For more than a decade, he has shared a message that challenges many traditional teachings, pointing to the absence of a separate self and the immediacy of what is already present. His approach is direct, uncompromising, and often provocative, inviting listeners to question some of their most fundamental assumptions about identity and awakening. In this conversation, Jim and I explore the message there is no separate self, no path, no one becoming awakened, and nothing to attain. As the conversation unfolds, we'll look at seeking liberation, free will, embodiment, and the challenge of speaking about what cannot be grasped conceptually. Underneath it all, you may recognize this question. What happens when you encounter a message that you cannot use? Watch how this conversation lands in you. Not only as ideas but as a living experience. Does it bring relief, curiosity, frustration, resistance, a sense of recognition? Notice what happens as you listen. Let's begin. Hello, Jim.

Jim Newman 2:10

Thanks. Yeah, it's nice to be here.

Ilona 2:13

Do you need an introduction? I think everyone in non-reality space knows who Jim Newman is.

Jim Newman 2:20

Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Ilona 2:24

Um here we go. Today we are talking with Jim Newman. Uh how long have you been uh pointing or teaching?

Jim Newman 2:38

Um oh I over ten years.

Ilona 2:42

How did you get into that?

Jim Newman 2:45

I was asked, a friend of mine asked asked me to start talking.

Ilona 2:51

And how did you get into seeing just this or simply this?

Jim Newman 2:59

Um well, I mean it's not it's not really anything that happens. There's no there's no sense that this has ever been any different. So to say, how did I get into seeing it, I did would suggest that something happened to Jim that um then brings about speaking about this in this way. And when we talk about things like it just doesn't it just doesn't make any sense. All we're talking about is what is already. If we're talking about non-duality, which isn't a thing, we're talking about what is already, and so what is already isn't isn't something that happened to a gym at some point in the past.

Ilona 3:50

Yes, I hear you, but still it would be interesting to hear a little bit of the story because the story of Jim. Yeah, why not allow it to arise it right here? Yeah, there's nothing with it.

Jim Newman 4:04

Um, so the story of Jim, I guess as it relates to this, in the story, there was an awakening um in the early 20s. Um totally unprepared, unexpected, didn't didn't even understand what was happening, um, where what we're talking about now was revealed. Um and and then there was a period of, well, when that left, because there was no understanding of what happened, um, when it stopped, there were a lot, although it was recognized it had nothing to do with anyone or anything, or even the story of Jim, um just out of out of just being completely lost with what that what that had done, I started following gurus and practicing, trying to get back to what seemed to have happened. And the entire time though, I'll have to say, which probably made me a very poor seeker or student, was that part of the awakening was that it had nothing to do with anything. So there wasn't any way to get back to it. And then and then at some point later, it um the whole story just dissolved.

Ilona 5:29

Yeah, interesting.

Jim Newman 5:31

Without without cause, of course.

Ilona 5:43

I ask everyone on the show talking about this shift or this recognition or awakening. I just use the word awakening because yeah, it's just a word, right?

Jim Newman 5:55

Yeah.

Ilona 5:56

What is your definition of awakening?

Jim Newman 6:00

Awakening in the way I talk about it would be what happened in my early 20s. It would be uh a sudden awakening to a reality that's not obvious, that reveals, yeah, that nothing is the way it seems, really. And then in the dissolving of the story completely, I would call liberation, which is the end of there ever having been anyone being an experiencer of something separate.

Ilona 6:31

Lovely. I'm with you on that.

Jim Newman 6:35

Oh, good.

Ilona 6:36

Yes, I've been pointing to no self, I don't know, 15, 16 years now.

Jim Newman 6:43

Yeah.

Ilona 6:44

So I find that this particular point is so potent and so powerful, and it can turn somebody's world upside down, meaning yeah, yeah.

Jim Newman 6:56

The recognition is responsible for a lot of books being thrown away, yes, or no longer read. Yeah. But I mean, just just just to be clear, I don't there isn't any sense here that there's a pointing or a teaching about what how this is shared. It's more inspirational. It's it either is heard or it isn't. Um, it's not a path, it's not something to follow, not something to become, not something to practice. As I said, to talk about it as though it had happened in the past is kind of misleading. And so the whole message comes from well, to be as least misleading as it can. Just sharing what is already, but it's hidden by that experience of separation that feels like something needs to happen, or that there's something else that needs to be found.

Ilona 7:59

Yes. Well, for me, there's nothing to find, it's already. And I find sometimes people get trapped into this, there's nobody here as well.

Jim Newman 8:33

Sure. Anything that sounds good to the individual because it's on a search, of course, it can't hear what this message is really, because the individual is limited to a subject-object reality. And so when it hears what we're talking about, it makes it into an object, a something to become.

Ilona 9:01

That's a good thing, yes. I met those.

Jim Newman 9:04

Yeah, uh it's just the way it happens, it's just what happens with the individual. But I mean, it's the individual is always seeking. It's the energy of separation has within it a sense of something being lost and a need to find something else. And so it's always seeking, whether it's making a making a misunderstanding what this message is or finding some other path, it's convinced that what's longed for is somewhere else and it is the end of a path that it's going to take.

Ilona 9:37

Yes, that's so true. Like it's somewhere out there in the future, or yeah, something else.

Jim Newman 9:45

Well, somewhere else, or even hidden, hidden in this.

Ilona 9:50

Yeah, it'll it'll it'll it's people come and say, I understand this intellectually, yeah. Uh, but I don't see it in my experience.

Jim Newman 10:00

Yeah, I don't either. Yes, it's all it's all about looking for another experience. That's what that's all the individual can do is look for a better experience.

Ilona 10:11

Hmm. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with any experience.

Jim Newman 10:14

So here's what we're talking about here. Excuse me.

Ilona 10:18

I say there's nothing wrong with any experience that is here.

Jim Newman 10:22

No, no, with the experience, there's there's no nothing wrong with anything. Not even with the sense of separation. That's another misunderstanding that comes out of listening to this message is that the sense of separation is then become made into the boo man, the bad one that has to be gotten rid of. Whereas the message is all encompassing, it's all embracing. Everything's included.

Ilona 10:58

I'd like to ask you to share the message that is coming through you, just yeah, succinctly and precisely how it is.

Jim Newman 11:10

Yeah. Well, you could talk about it. It's funny, you can talk about it in all sorts of different ways, but I think the most poignant part of the message is there just isn't anyone. The experience of being someone makes what appears seem to be a subject-object reality in which I have volition and a need to become as a person. And that experience is an illusion. It's an illusion that includes the experience of time, objects, the subject, the experience that I am a reality inside or as a body, and everything is separate from me. And it's up to me with my sense of personhood to find something else to navigate that separate reality to become a better me. And in the end, it's it well, first off, like I said, you could talk forever, but it's there's it's all it doesn't matter because it's all already what's longed for. So the whole process, the whole sense of separation isn't separate from what's longed for. There is just the unconditional appearing as this. And that that's all inclusive. That includes a sense of separation. How is that? Is that all right?

Ilona 12:41

Yes. Let's have some tea. They are talking about this in a way. Yeah. That it seems it's learned or it seems like it's just being repeated and um I don't know, kind of like a protection not being seen like a human.

Jim Newman 13:21

Yeah.

Ilona 13:21

Do you meet people like that?

Jim Newman 13:24

Um not too many, but no. No, I guess they don't they don't see any point in talking to me.

Ilona 13:31

Oh right. Okay. That's funny. So do you do you work uh with individuals? I know you do like uh group meetings, but do you work with individuals as well?

Jim Newman 13:54

No, no, sometimes at the meetings, although not very often, there'll be there's things that people want to talk about in private that they don't want to talk about in the meeting. And so we could have private meetings, and I am available on the phone. I do take phone calls in the mornings. But I wouldn't like it's not really what's that?

Ilona 14:15

A little bit like Tony Parsons.

Jim Newman 14:18

Oh, exactly like Tony Parsons.

Ilona 14:19

Oh, cool. Yeah, I haven't talked to Tony Parsons yet. But I I think that both of you messages very much very close.

Jim Newman 14:32

So oh, totally, yeah, absolutely. Well, as far as I'm concerned, we're talking about the same thing, which isn't a thing. It's not very common still, although it's been around for about 30 years in this way. It's still not very common for there to be a message that doesn't acknowledge the individual. Most people who speak are teachers who are speaking to an individual that is that who they acknowledge as real, that has free will and choice to find something else, to find something in their experience.

Ilona 15:15

That's interesting. Because when I speak, I work with people every day. When I speak, I don't speak to individual. I see that that individual is the mind made-up image that is not there to speak to, rather than there is some energy formation or some patterning that is waiting to be interrupted.

Jim Newman 15:38

Yeah. Like um, yeah, so for me it isn't it isn't intellectual or mental, the construct of the individual. It is it is an energetic um sense in the body, an energetically held belief in the body that there is a someone separate from everything else.

Ilona 16:01

Yeah, so we can speak to that energetic contraction until it starts loosening it up just by receiving the message.

Jim Newman 16:12

I don't think it actually works that I think that can happen in a superficial way, that there can be an understanding of the message, um, and there can be a loosening of certain beliefs or ideas about what the appearance is. But the energetically held contraction completely engulfs everything that appears as its experience. And so all that it hears, all that it recognizes, all of that is just within the story of separation. So it doesn't, it doesn't really, there's no way, or at least here, there's no sense that there's any speaking to an individual. I mean, besides the fact that there aren't any, but the individual will always make this into a subject-object reality because that's its only reality. So the message, although there's a lot of words, it actually is more energetic and it speaks to or can resonate with an openness which isn't from the individual, an openness to this being about something other than a personal experience.

Ilona 17:29

Yeah, because there's so much more going on here than just exchanging words.

Jim Newman 17:35

Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.

Ilona 17:37

Yeah, there's a shared being. Oh shared interbeing. That's just another word I like. Yeah. The giggle now comes up.

Jim Newman 17:55

Well, it's the way it seems here is that it it's not really a shared being because there aren't two beings to share. It's all no thing. It's all unknowing, and this is an appearance. This conversation is an appearance of unknowing, of emptiness.

Ilona 18:21

So how do we even know it ever happened? You know, maybe it's already finished.

Jim Newman 18:26

Oh, it is. It is. Well, it's it's already done. Absolutely.

Ilona 18:39

Yeah, how do we know how long ago we started talking and if we talked at all?

Jim Newman 18:44

Yeah, absolutely. Well, there can be the appearance of knowing, but that's that's not from a person. Yeah. Yeah.

Ilona 19:10

Do you find that fun?

Jim Newman 19:12

What well fun what I the meetings are are touching and inspirational. There it's just there's a saying, and it just it's it always comes up. There's a saying, I think it's out of the Bible, when two or more gather together in my name, I'll be there. And there is something about sharing this or talking about this, um, when there's an openness or an interest that's that's energetically what exciting.

Ilona 19:48

That's my kind of fun.

Jim Newman 19:50

Yeah, yeah.

Ilona 19:53

Yeah, notice that in these meetings would be open people, individuals. I mean you know what I mean. In these meetings when there is openness, the exchange is different.

Jim Newman 20:08

Oh, sure.

Ilona 20:09

Then with people absolutely individuals who never questioned or never opened.

Jim Newman 20:17

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny here, it just doesn't come up. If there isn't an interest, then there just isn't any any talking about it. It's only if there's an interest that there's that there's no, you know, that we share.

Ilona 20:35

So when let's say you go in a market or supermarket and you don't just go like there is nobody here. I no.

Jim Newman 20:43

No, I do tend to make jokes though, like it's being late for a doctor's appointment or something, and I'll just giggle, oh well, there isn't any time anyway. And the secretary will go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, there's no, you know, there isn't any any sense that there's anything that's out of place. That that there's something here that isn't there as well, that isn't already perfect in a way that's beyond conception. So there's no no need, there isn't there isn't an appearance of any need to to say anything or change anything in that way.

Ilona 21:25

Yeah. So that human appearance or the human being is still going around doing its thing.

Jim Newman 21:38

Yeah, absolutely. The chair is doing its thing, and the sky is doing its thing, and the bodies are doing their thing.

Ilona 21:54

What is your view about the embodiment? Embodied this awakening being embodied and living from that, like practical everyday living. How do you see that?

Jim Newman 22:12

Well, that that would be a personal experience of wanting to embody um an experience and become that experience, and then try to live from that experience or realization. That would be part of the story of the me, that there's a better way to be, such as embodying an experience, and then trying to become that. The individual doesn't, it's not like the individual has a choice. When that experience appears, arises, it there it comes with the sense that there's something incomplete with the appearance. It's actually just the sense of separation that makes it seem like there's something incomplete. And so it will endeavor to find a better way of being. The sense that when emotion arises, that it's my feeling, or when a thought arises that it's my thought.

Ilona 23:28

So it's just living from that pattern of me being here inside the skin and being in control.

Jim Newman 23:35

Yeah.

Ilona 23:35

Okay.

Jim Newman 23:36

Well, it's it's an energetic contraction in the body, it's an energetically sensed reality that makes the entire appearance not only seem separate, but seem to be real and meaningful and purposeful. All of that comes with the sense of separation, the experience of being in the body or as a body, separate from everything else.

Ilona 24:01

Yeah. And when that is seen through, what happens to the meaning?

Jim Newman 24:08

Well, there isn't any.

Ilona 24:10

Right.

Jim Newman 24:11

Yeah, there isn't any meaning or purpose to the appearance. That's just a way of it's just another aspect of them that sense of separation, the me, feeling better about what's happening. There's a there's a just an engendered sense of something missing, incomplete, or lost when there's a sense of separation and a fundamental demand, an energetic demand to try to become better. And individuals have sort of two different modes. It comes from childhood, but either either it's the the problem either is with me inside me, me, I need to become better, or the world. And so it will try to either fix the world or fix itself.

Ilona 25:00

Yeah.

Jim Newman 25:01

Trying to find basically an endless experience of happiness is what it wants, what it thinks it wants.

Ilona 25:09

Yeah, they have to be able to do it.

Jim Newman 25:10

Of course, an endless experience of happiness couldn't be recognized because there's nothing separate. If it's always one thing, you there's no way to recognize what it is.

Ilona 25:26

And what is your experience of happy ever after? I mean, in your in your life.

Jim Newman 25:31

Of what?

Ilona 25:32

Happy ever after.

Jim Newman 25:34

Happy ever after. Yeah. There isn't, I mean, there's happiness, it's just a feeling, it comes and goes.

Ilona 25:40

Uh-huh. So after this recognition, do you find that it's okay to get angry, it's okay to be sad, it's okay to be joyful, and it's okay to get annoyed, or or this is no longer showing up.

Jim Newman 26:01

Oh, all that shows up. Um, it's just not for anyone. And it's not, if there's no sense here of it needing to be okay or not okay. It's just is what it is. As I think I said already, there's a perfection of what is that isn't conceptual or experiential. So there's no separate entity needing for it to be okay or not okay, and no separate sort of construct or idea um scaffold of things having the value of being okay or not okay. There's there's a natural avoidance of unpleasant experiences or unpleasant things and a natural attraction to pleasant things, but it's not personal. There isn't a person trying to find something to fulfill to find fulfillment, a personal fulfillment in what's happening. The individual can't help it. It's like it's like an added-on um layer to the appearance that the individual is looking in everything that's happening for a sense of fulfillment or satisfaction, something for itself. And so everything still apparently happens, it just doesn't have that added second layer of it needing to be a certain way or another way.

Ilona 27:24

Yeah, I hear you. It's like there is a before there is a relationship with what is appearing, and after that risk relationship starts dissolving and no longer shows up.

Jim Newman 27:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ilona 27:43

Then everything that shows up is just what's showing up.

Jim Newman 27:46

Absolutely, yeah.

Ilona 27:50

And that is kind of unhappy ever after because there is no fighting anymore. There's no one fighting, yes, um there is no one fighting, and there is no fight going on. Yeah, well, the whole thing is swallowed by the nothing.

Jim Newman 28:07

Yeah, it is, it is, it is beautiful. It it there's an innate or an I guess innate's the best word, an innate beauty in just the the fact that there is an appearance, there's something fulfilled about that. There the what appears is so perfectly what it is, so fully and completely what it is. And that's not that's not only what appears to the individual as beautiful, but a rotten apple is the most beautiful appearance of a rotten apple that could be, because there isn't the context of it needing to be anything else, there isn't a demand, an internal separate individual demanding something, needing something out of what is.

Ilona 29:03

Yes, to that. I think a lot of people are looking for that in their own language, in their own in their own way. Sure, sure. Yes, all this seeking, you know, it's not just self-help, journey of self-help because everything in mainstream is about self-help because the self needs help. It's never-ending story of trying to help the self to be better, yeah, yeah. But there is also that deep longing for truth, which is beyond the self-help.

Jim Newman 29:45

Um yeah, sure.

Ilona 29:47

That is the call that leads to this opening, yeah.

Jim Newman 29:53

Well, I think it's the other way, I think it's the opening that that then is open to this being about something else, and so it's yeah. I think the openness is what brings this message about, and this message does bring about the openness.

Ilona 30:12

Yeah, it's a you can say it's a mystery because there is no way to explain it or to talk about this, yeah, unless you're looking from that place. Then you can you say, I say, I hear you. Hopefully you hear me.

Jim Newman 30:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ilona 30:32

But it's just the the place from which we see or talk or live life that shifts.

Jim Newman 30:41

Sure. Sure. From a place to nothing, yeah, to nowhere, or everywhere.

Ilona 30:56

Do you find that many individuals that um are getting annoyed with your message? I mean, with this message, not yours per se, but with this message.

Jim Newman 31:07

Not so much anymore. In the beginning, a lot. It it's interesting. I have never heard a criticism of the message from someone who understood it. It's always it's always a misunderstanding that's pulled out and then attacked, their own personal misunderstanding of what's being suggested. But that doesn't seem to come up that much anymore. It used to be, it used to be years ago, not half the room, but a few, um, a number of people would get up and leave. I mean, maybe even after the introduction. And that doesn't happen so much anymore. I mean, it's so out there. Yes, it is that people when people come, they don't, they already have an idea of what it is, what the meeting's about. But it's a it's a the the message is is it's just unacceptable and unbelievable. Two things the individual wants to do. It wants to accept and it wants to believe. And it doesn't meet the individual on any level. So it would create, I mean, just fundamentally, just the nature of the message undermining the sense of separation, which is convinced of its own reality, that it would be rejected.

Ilona 32:34

Yeah. So this message is not for everyone, it has a certain place and a certain time with a certain intensity of seeking that you can just pierce through, and here we go, recognition happens.

Jim Newman 32:53

Or not, but what's obvious here is what we're talking about, is what every everyone longs for.

Ilona 33:00

Yes.

Jim Newman 33:06

There's something that drives. The individual doesn't want this, but it is what's longed for, and that longing appears when there's a sense of separation, there's something that recognizes the incomplete, the unnatural nature of the experience of separation and a longing for wholeness.

Ilona 33:31

And it's hidden in a plain sight, yeah, in a sense, yeah.

Jim Newman 33:37

Yeah.

Ilona 33:38

I say, well, go into nature, look how everything is happening in nature. There's nobody there, nobody there inside the tree or a bug or a bird. It's just everything's happening by itself, naturally.

Jim Newman 33:52

The bird's not trying to become a better bird.

Ilona 33:55

Yeah.

Jim Newman 34:00

It's just bird happening.

Ilona 34:02

Yes. And I find it fascinating that the humans have this language and definitions of words. And if you look at the definition of nature, it excludes a human being from the very nature. The definition of the world really, yeah. It's like nature is everything that is opposed to human creation and human.

Jim Newman 34:27

Oh, right, okay.

Ilona 34:28

Yeah, if you look on on our web yeah on the internet, right?

Jim Newman 34:33

Oh, I understand, yeah.

Ilona 34:34

Yeah, that the separation is from nature, but nature is here, everything is nature.

Jim Newman 34:44

Absolutely.

Ilona 34:46

I think this is the biggest misunderstanding because the human, when the mind evolved, yeah, and it decided that it's outside of nature, better than nature, or it's here to control nature, it hid that, it hid that wholeness away from itself through language.

Jim Newman 35:06

Okay. That's not the way it appears here, but I understand what you're saying.

Ilona 35:12

How do you see that?

Jim Newman 35:15

The language is just language, there isn't anything out of place, actually. The only sense of things being out of place is the sense of being a person separate from everything else. And that that experience of separation is divisive, it's divisiveness fundamentally. It likes yes and no, it likes here and there, it likes now and then, it likes things that it can relate to, can understand, which is which is the big difficulty for an individual, why this doesn't resonate with individuals, because it doesn't land in their experience. They can't, the individual can't actually make sense of this message. If it does, if it thinks it does, then it'll make a path out of it.

Ilona 36:12

Like a new belief.

Jim Newman 36:14

A new absolutely. Yeah, uh all of it. All of from from glimpses, little big, all of that, to there just being no sense of separation left. No, no, it's a yeah, it isn't the whole idea that there's a lot to say about nothing appearing, I think feeds back into the individual's need to know something or to find something or understand something in the in the experience that that's going to bring it closer to what we're talking about. In the meetings, there's a lot of silence. Because it's it we quickly run into the end of the ability of the individual to come up with a question. Because the questions all come from the sense of separation, and it it's often quickly seen that that that there isn't anything, at least in the meetings, on offer this podcast is for the secret. Okay.

Ilona 39:28

That's how it shows up. So it's for the seeker who is either still looking for awakening.

Jim Newman 39:36

Yeah. Or the secret the secret the secret doesn't actually want what we're talking about. It can't. It can only want what it can know, what's separate from it. And what we're talking about is already everything. It's the unconditional being everything. And what's longed for is the end of the separation, the sense of being someone. But the individual doesn't want its own end, it can't imagine it. It's afraid, it's afraid of what we're talking about. It's uh it's afraid of losing what it feels it knows, and fundamentally, for the individual, knowing I am is the basis of its experience. The last thing it wants is the end of that knowing.

Ilona 40:34

And do you know that you are?

Jim Newman 40:37

No. Well, there isn't there isn't anyone here to know they are.

Ilona 40:48

Do you see my hand moving?

Jim Newman 40:51

Well, all the all the senses seem to function. Yeah. There's just no separate experience or yeah in the body, knowing it.

Ilona 41:04

Yeah, what this knowing is not in the body, there's knowing of the body, of the hand moving, of the words, of of off. That knowing is still here, right?

Jim Newman 41:17

Well, there's a functioning this this body functions normally or naturally. Yeah, but there's no second instance of a knower having the experience of the functioning of the body.

Ilona 41:37

Yes, that's a little bit uh conceptual, I would say. There yeah, there is knowing an experience, not to just knowing experience, knowing of sitting here.

Jim Newman 41:53

So not here, right? Not here, there isn't a knowing experience here.

Ilona 41:59

What is here?

Jim Newman 42:02

Well, I'm talking about here.

Ilona 42:04

Uh-huh.

Jim Newman 42:04

There's not anywhere, really. There isn't a here in that sense, but there isn't anywhere. The knowing experience is the knowing of being separate from everything. Experience is subject-object. There has to be an experiencer for there to be an experience.

Ilona 42:23

That's interesting. Because that's language. There has to be an experience.

Jim Newman 42:29

It's conceptual until until it's obvious. It's conceptual because it doesn't relate to the individual's need to know something. And so suggesting there isn't an individual sounds conceptual to the individual. Because it's trying to make sense of it.

Ilona 42:52

And there is no sense.

Jim Newman 42:55

Well, there isn't anyone to make sense of it. It's not an experience, it's not a new experience of being no one or of unknowing. There's just the end of that dream that there's an individual that's separate from the whole. This message has been described like a brick wall.

Ilona 43:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Newman 43:35

Yeah.

Ilona 43:36

Yeah.

Jim Newman 43:36

And so it can be frustrating. Especially if there's an openness. If there's no openness, it's just rejected as nonsense or intellectual. If there's an openness, it's frustrating because there's some resonance with what's being heard, with with what's being said. And but there can't be that there's an it's an im feels like an impossibility to get closer to it. To make it into a personal experience, which is the mode of the individual.

Ilona 44:10

What would you say that this message is for? Because when there is openness and seriousness, it's not for anything.

Jim Newman 44:18

It's completely pointless.

Ilona 44:20

Uh-huh. Okay.

Jim Newman 44:22

Yeah, absolutely.

Ilona 44:25

The individual.

Jim Newman 44:27

There isn't any the the there isn't any reason in the way we're talking for anything. This conversation on the computer is timeless. It's the timeless appearing to happen. It isn't the cause of the email or whatever you send asking if we could have a conversation. This is the whole of it. What is already is everything. It's not really a linear reality. So in that way, there isn't any point. There isn't any meaning. There isn't any intention. Just as the bird isn't trying to become a better bird, the appearance isn't trying to become a better appearance. It just is what it is, completely fulfilled and whole, exactly as this I get um images coming up of people watching this conversation on YouTube. Yeah.

Ilona 45:58

Or listening to a podcast.

Jim Newman 46:01

Yeah.

Ilona 46:04

Being completely confused.

Jim Newman 46:06

Yeah, sure.

Ilona 46:07

Which is great because that's the interruption of the pattern.

Jim Newman 46:12

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ilona 46:18

It doesn't mean anything. It's not a gender of the thing.

Jim Newman 46:22

Not in the way we're talking.

Ilona 46:24

Yeah.

Jim Newman 46:25

Yeah.

Ilona 46:26

But whatever is being spoken here.

Jim Newman 46:31

Yeah.

Ilona 46:33

Has um it's being spoken because it will land somewhere. Oh, it's going to land somewhere. Oh, it's already done. It's already done. It's already landed somewhere.

Jim Newman 46:44

It it actually is empty. It's just it's just an empty appearance. It's already fulfilled. It's not trying to be like to land or not to land. It's just empty of that whole story of the appearance being about something or being about me rather than just being pure as it is already. And the that never actually changes. And so the meetings in that way aren't about anything. Because there's there's just the empty purity appearing as this. Yeah, thank you for sharing this with me. Thanks for inviting. Yeah. Yeah, that's great.

Ilona 48:17

And do you have any final words? Um are there any final words arising in this moment to nothing and to no one being completely just here?

Jim Newman 48:32

No. No. No, thanks for having me.

Ilona 48:37

Oh, great. Yeah. And for everyone who is listening or watching, thank you. And you can leave your comments and questions and whatever you notice in you in the comment section.

Jim Newman 48:53

Yeah. All right, thank you.

Ilona 48:57

Thank you. Thank you, Jim. What a pleasure.

Jim Newman 48:59

Thank you.