When Pointers Leave the Seeker Nowhere to Go with Sukhdev Virdee

In this episode of Awakening Now, I speak with Sukhdev Virdee, author of sixteen books on Advaita Vedanta and nondual philosophy.

Sukhdev works with people who have already explored the teachings deeply. They have read the books, watched the videos, understood nonduality intellectually, and yet still feel that something hasn't fully landed.

We explore Sukhdev's own awakening experience and the years of inquiry that followed. Together we look at the relationship between awakening and understanding, the role of spiritual teachings, self-inquiry, and a question many seekers eventually face:

What happens when the pointers are no longer getting you anywhere?

This conversation touches on consciousness, awareness, identity, the nature of reality, and the subtle ways seeking can continue even after profound insights have occurred.

If you've ever felt that you understand the teachings but something remains unresolved, this episode may speak directly to your experience.

Sukhdev Virdee works with those who have already done the work, read the books, watched the videos, understood nonduality intellectually, and still find something hasn't fully landed.

Most teachings point one toward Awareness and stop there. Sukhdev goes in the opposite direction. He turns toward what is false and dismantles it precisely, the ego, the I thought, the mechanics of how the mind keeps confusion alive, until the mind has nothing left to rebuild the seeking from. Understanding ends the seeking. Believing doesn't.

He is the author of sixteen books on Advaita Vedanta and nondual philosophy and teaches through his YouTube channel and one-on-one mentorship.

YouTube: youtube.com/@sukhdevvirdee
Books: amazon.com/author/sukhdevvirdee

Music by Valdi Sabev. In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Transcript

Ilona 0:00

Awakening isn't about becoming someone new. It's about seeing through what you're not. You're listening to Awakening Now. A podcast for those on a journey of seeing what is real and living from that recognition. This is episode 131. When pointers leave the seeker nowhere to go. With a suckdive verde. My name is Lona Tonike. I am a guide and author and co-creator of the Liberation and Leash Community. And if you are in the process of awakening, the space is for you. For the past 14 years, I have been guiding and supporting seekers in discovering peace and freedom through direct experience. My guest today is Sukdev Virdee, author of 16 books on Advaita Vedanta and on dual philosophy. His work is aimed at those who have already done the work, read the books, watched the videos, understood in non-duality intellectually, and still feel that something hasn't fully landed. In this conversation, Sukdev shares how an unexpected awakening transformed the direction of his life and sparked years of inquiry into consciousness, identity, and the nature of reality. Together we explore a question many seekers eventually face. What happens when the pointers are no longer getting you anywhere?

Sukhdev Virdee 1:39

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Ilona 1:42

Today I'm talking to Sugdev Burdi. And I don't know much about you, only that you've written 15 books about on awakening, on the subject of awakening consciousness. And yeah, that's that's a lot of books. Nice job. Would you like to introduce yourself a little?

Sukhdev Virdee 2:04

Okay. Uh yeah. All right. So Sukhdeverdi. I was um born and brought up in Kenya, uh, East Africa, and uh been a pop singer all my life. Uh I was a Punjabi pop singer. Um, then I moved to the UK, studied music there, was in college, did a B Tech in music production, lived in Dubai, worked with a studio, came to India, uh, did some albums and some music in Bollywood, became a big star in the pop industry, Punjabi music. And then 2015, some certain experiences changed my life completely, inside out, upside down, everything like gone. And since then, the search over the seeking of what that was uh begun. And uh so in 2019, then I decided what what I had gone through, what I had been through, I would put it down in books, so it may help somebody else on the path. And the reason for doing that was because being a pop star, a pop singer with uh uh an image of somebody who's really energetic on stage and now starting to talk about nothing and awareness and all that. Uh, you know, you can relate, the family would not relate to it, nobody in their friend circle understands it. And so I thought, let me just put it all down in books and get it out of my head and my system, and whoever needs to find it will find it. So in 2019, I wrote my first series called I Am Consciousness, yeah, and then it started from there.

Ilona 3:48

Wow, so you wrote it in one go, the whole series. Amazing.

Sukhdev Virdee 3:52

Uh yeah. So I never wanted to be an author who wrote just one book.

Ilona 3:59

Okay, yeah.

Sukhdev Virdee 4:00

Yeah, if if you understand a subject and you can talk about it endlessly, then uh obviously you would want different perspectives of it. So, what I did was in my first series, I started a series because I understood or what I thought non-duality should be taught like was not the way uh people were teaching it. On YouTube or in books, you get fragments from different uh places, but how to put it together or where to start? Um, it's it's really important because if you're starting is not right, you wouldn't know what you're looking for. And so I put them in a chronological order, and it includes a lot of my own experiences that I went through. But I put it all in a story form. So my entire series, all my books are in a story form.

Ilona 4:48

Wow, how incredible! Okay, um, I ask everyone on the show, whoever comes, um first of all, what we are what are we talking about? Um, okay, we'll call it awakening, a shift, or whatever else. So just using word awakening, what is your definition of of that awakening? What is it?

Sukhdev Virdee 5:12

What is yeah, awakening. Um, so I like to break down the words, understand what the word itself means. To be awake simply means not to be asleep. There's no other word that can describe it. The opposite of awake is asleep. So when you wake up, what do you do? You recognize the reality. So if you're sleeping and you wake up, uh you realize that, oh, I've been on my bed all the time. This is reality. So you wake up to reality. Now, spiritual awakening is waking up to who you truly are, not what you have taken yourself to be all the time. So you recognize what you have always been, and you wake up from that. That has been asleep all the time all this time. Uh, you have you you know it as well. So, right from childhood, we are conditioned. This is I, I, I, and we grow up with that identity, and then when that awakening or that uh uh the moment comes where you realize, no, this is not I, and so you wake up from that. What am I then? So you've woken up from what you were not truly to what you are truly, that's awakening.

Ilona 6:24

Uh-huh. Yes, I'm with you. Nice.

Sukhdev Virdee 6:27

Yeah.

Ilona 6:28

Hmm. Um something you said in the beginning that I got curious right away. So let's let's dive into that. You said that non-duality is not being taught in the right way, and I would like to hear from you what is the wrong way and what is the right way.

Sukhdev Virdee 6:44

Oh, uh not completely in the wrong way, in a chronological order. That's what I meant. What does a seeker need to know in the beginning? You need to know what you're looking for or what you're trying to understand, or what is it that the scriptures, saints, masters, everybody is talking about. What is it that they're talking about? Now, the problem with it is that we can't talk about it, right? But the seeker doesn't know that from his point of view. He's still trying to find something or something to understand, to know. So he's got to understand it cannot be understood. And then the whole process of why it cannot be understood. So uh pointings like it cannot be known or stop the search, it cannot be understood. These are great pointings, but then for a seeker or somebody who's on the path uh for many years, these kind of sayings just shut the mind, but then they don't know what to do with it. Right now, what do I do if if I can't understand it, then why are we even talking about it? Why are you even telling me it cannot not be known or understood? Um, so the seeker needs to know in the first phase what is it that we are talking about? Then, secondly, how do you make me understand it? Um, sorry, I didn't give you my background. I so after my awakening from 2015, it led me to study the Advaita Vedanta text, the Upanishads I studied extensively. Bhagavad Gita, name the text, most of the texts I studied them very extensively. So the three steps in Advaita Vedanta is Shrevanam Mananam Nididyasnam, which is uh listen to the teachings, then understand them and get clarity, and then lastly, live it experientially. So the starting is first just listen. I need to know what we are talking about. Secondly, now I have questions and doubts about what you said. It cannot be known. I have a doubt, I have a question. Why can it not be known? Now if the questions and answers start, now the seeker then gets clarity why it cannot be known. Then there's intellectual clarity, and that now should lead to experiential living of that reality. Just intellectual clarity is not uh important, the living reality is more important.

Ilona 9:16

How did this awakening happen for you?

Sukhdev Virdee 9:19

Okay, yeah. So in 2015, I was going through a really bad phase in life, emotionally, mentally, financially, in all ways. And uh suddenly, uh, out of the blue, three friends who I rarely meet gifted me the Bhagavad Gita out of the blue. It's like I just randomly go into uh a bank where my bank account is, which I've not visited for a few months, and I meet a friend there, and he says, Sukdev, please wait here, I have something for you. He goes back home, brings me a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, and this happened three times with three different friends within 10 days. Wow, and so I thought, okay, now I I I should read it, and uh, so I did read it, and then it really, really it was like what I had been looking for all my life. I had been spiritual since childhood, and uh so for two years, the next two years, all I did was just read that and I followed what was written in it. So I did the meditation, I did the flowers, I did the worship, I did everything, and then one day when I woke up from meditation, I just walked into the living room and the body froze. It's like I fell into the center of nothingness. I could see there was no body, there was no body, there was sea, everything I was the light and would I was then and I don't know how long that lasted, came back at that time. There was so slowly the mind came back, like I came back to my senses, the body became uh lucid again, and my first thoughts were, What was that? and I can't really talk. Who do who do I talk to about this? Where do I find it? And so I thought it was grace from Krishna and the Bhagavad Gita and all that that I had been following. So I doubled down on that, trying to get that experience again. I guess yes, and until one of my friends who had given me the Gita, he said, Uh, I think you're ready for Vedanta. I said, What's that now? And so he pushed me on to the Upanishads. And I said, Oh my god, this is these books and these teachings are talking about what I have been through. What is it? I had never heard of something called the self, higher self, consciousness, awareness. Never. It was just at most God and me and the world. And so I studied this because it was everything that I had been through that I was going through. So there was no way I could let it go. It was talking about me. And so I studied it, and then when I understood it intellectually, I said, this must go out. How can we miss when it's right in front of us? Uh, like awareness and the self and everything, whatever we are looking for. It's been with us all along, and we don't see it. And this knowledge, like you said, you need to tell everybody. So I thought I need to tell everybody, and nobody was interested. So then I went on to put it in, I went on to put it in books. That was the reason to write the books. And uh after that, all enthusiasm for life and achievement, like becoming a singer, becoming a star, doing shows, concerts, all that fell away. And then for eight years, all I did was study all the texts until I could not read anymore. I can't read a single book now. I just cannot pick up a book and read. I've read that much. So I wanted to get actually what happened is I wanted to understand it intellectually as well. So that when I talk to somebody, now I can answer any question. And uh, so for a seeker uh who's on the path, I realize they need to ask the right questions. When somebody tells you it cannot be known, the seeker should say, okay, I won't ask about it, but can you tell me why it cannot be known? Because you know that it cannot be known, right? So teach me why it cannot be known. Because if I know that, then I know that which cannot be known. That's the way of teaching it. And so I went down to understanding what how language works, how all the traditions are pointing to the same words using uh same meaning with different words. Something like Shiva. If you talk about Shiva, and if we talk about in common language, it's consciousness. Shiva is consciousness. Simple. If you talk about Vishnu, Vishnu is existence. You go into the Upanishads, it is Satchit Ananda, existence, consciousness, bliss. So I wanted to understand it so well that I can talk to somebody who just knows English, that's it. No Sanskrit terms, no uh, you know, high, heavy words, simple English. Are you conscious? You aware? Okay, you're looking for Shiva, that's Shiva, if you're coming from that tradition, if you're looking for that. Otherwise, in simple English, how can we explain it? And so I that led me to write one of my final books, it was titled The Power of Nothing. So I came to the understanding that the closest word in English for somebody to understand is nothing. Because when you tell somebody nothing, now they understand, okay, it's not a thing, and nothing does not bring an object, an image into the mind. Whereas consciousness can bring an image, it can be turned into a concept. So the word nothing really means nothing. Now, study what nothing means. Nobody teaches us what nothing is, nobody teaches us what silence is, nobody teaches us what the unknown is. These are the things that we have never learned. And so, how can we teach those? We are using so many words, yet we are trying to point to silence. This is the teaching. But I'm speaking so much, but for somebody who doesn't somebody who doesn't know this is the teaching, you have to make them understand that the words are arising in silence and going back. Silence doesn't go away, it's always there. So this kind of stuff. And then once I understood it, and then uh my only reason for I just recently started my YouTube channel. My only reason to share the wisdom is because there are many teachers right now who say you are awareness, stop the search, it can't be known, they can directly take you to awareness. I work with the people who have understood I am awareness. How do I integrate it into life? So, why do I still feel something is missing, even though I understand it? Um, how do I bring life back and live it fully? Because most people tend to give up their desire. I went through that, I gave up everything, I had no zest for life at all. It was like, what's the point of living? There isn't it's all an illusion. So I work with those people who are now trying to integrate it back, and that can only happen when you understand it intellectually. Now you're living it experientially. I am awareness, that's it, yes. But if you understand it intellectually, the mind has no questions left. So that's my only reason because I don't see many people talking about that. I still see people talking about how to realize or awaken to awareness, consciousness, and it's this already. Um kind of teachings like it is this already, and not even this side of words. Um, and so if you ask them anything, they'll say, and that is also within awareness, realize that. You know, anything you ask, or somebody else would tell you, um, anything you say is a story. And so if I have a question, so why is it a story? That's another story.

Ilona 17:48

Uh-huh.

Sukhdev Virdee 17:49

You know, so the seeker doesn't know where to go. So why is it a story? My question would be okay, it's a story. Why is it a story? Tell me why it's a story. So these kind of things. The I just thought, I better just put it out on YouTube. Whoever needs to find it will find it. Because there are very few people, like you said, you do that. You work with them directly to integrate back into life. There are very few people who are doing that, and that's the only reason I started. Otherwise, life was fine. Life was fine. Sure.

Ilona 18:23

Okay, I have a question. See, from where I see from when people I meet, um their main question at the moment seems I understand this intellectually, but I don't have an an experience. Which is the other side of what you are saying. I think there is first there's uh trying to understand it from reading books. On another side of that recognition is understanding it from experience, which is seeing what is going on and understanding it, what you are seeing. That is not from the books, that's from lived experience. So the seeker's dilemma seems to be I understand this when it really doesn't understand anything, but uh just uh repeating what other people said or pondering about YouTube videos that somebody said, whatever. And then they say that I don't see it in my experience. So what would be your entry?

Sukhdev Virdee 19:26

Oh, see, intellectual knowledge is not going to is intellectual knowledge is the like the pointing finger, it's not what it's pointing to. Obviously, the lived experience is what you want to achieve first, you want to realize it because what you experience cannot be questioned, cannot be doubted. They're all doubts uh drop down now. When you come back into the illusion, so from the lived experience, when we say the ego is false, it's uh an imaginary identity, can we logically prove it? Can we logically say how it is an illusion? What do we mean by an illusion? And how is the I thought an illusion? Logically, without having to believe anything or doing uh 20 years of meditation, can we just talk and make me understand why it's an illusion? Like right now, um, I am on your screen, you're on my screen. It looks like I'm looking at you, you're looking at me. In reality, you're looking at nothing but a screen, but it looks like nothing, right? So the reality is the screen, it's not me. I appear. The screen appears like me on the screen right now, there's the same with you over here.

Ilona 20:45

Correct.

Sukhdev Virdee 20:46

So logically, perception right now, I can't see the screen, but in reality, all I'm seeing is the screen, right? The screen cannot be seen, it's transparent. That's why I can see the light. And so, using these examples, why is the eye thought called an illusion? What is an illusion? An illusion is something that is not true, and an illusion cannot exist without a reality. Because wherever there's an illusion, there must be a reality. And where will the reality be? Exactly where the illusion is. It cannot be anywhere else. Like the screen is exactly where it looks like I am talking on it.

Ilona 21:33

That's where the screen is, it's nowhere else.

Sukhdev Virdee 21:36

Uh so logically, why is the eye thought called an illusion? These kinds of uh logical explanations, when you when you understand them, then it's up to you to believe them or not. Not believe them, you have seen it clearly. Now, do you want to follow through with it or not? I've met many people who have understood it and say, no, the ego gets frightened of. It because it's like ego death, it's a feeling like I'm gonna lose myself. If I see through the eye being an imagination, then I'm gonna lose myself. So I've seen many people who get who reach there and go back, they don't ponder further because what is further than that is the unknown, and the ego is scared of the unknown.

Ilona 22:23

Um what's what do you call ego?

Sukhdev Virdee 22:27

Oh, the ego is the I identification. What does identification mean? It means what uh from human beings, it's what I, me, myself, what I take to be myself. That's the ego, that's identification. I thought. Okay, so the I thought exists where it exists in the mind. It's a thought, it exists nowhere else, it's in the mind, it's a thought. So, why is this thought false? Why is it wrong? Why is it not real? So I take the people, the my students. So let's take a look at what do we take to be real? What do we mean when we say real? Yeah, good question. Well, it's really for the common person, the unenlightened or the one who's not realized, what is real for us from childhood? If I see it, it's real, if I hear it, it's real. For my five senses, anything I perceive must be real. That's what I call real. If I can see you, it must be real. If I smell, touch, taste, you know, the five senses, it must be real. Okay. So anything that's out in the world that I perceive with my body, that is real. Fine. We've covered the entire universe. Everything is outside. If I perceive it, it must be real. That's what I'm calling real. What about inside? Now, in my mind, I have thoughts. And because I have a thought, the thoughts are real. I can't deny that the thoughts are real. So I see a lamp behind you. I have a thought of the lamp. That thought is real, right? It's a real thought. But there are other thoughts which the power of the mind has, which it can imagine things, fantasize, it can uh dream things. That's how we have dreams. The mind has the power to take everything we've experienced and churn it up, and that's how fantasies come up, that's how fiction comes up. So the mind, what does the mind do? It has thoughts. So every thought points to a real thing. The thought of a chair means a chair, the thought of a table means a table. So these are real thoughts. What about the I thought? I thought does not point to something real. How? When you say I, it means this and my thoughts. It means the body and my thoughts, the person. So if I say, is this I? No, that's my head. Is this I? No, my nose, my cheek, my neck, my shoulders. Every body part is a part, is it has a name. There is no body part called I. I cannot point to a part here and say, This is I. If we take this out, I am no longer there. Or I say all of it is I, so that if my arm comes out, now there are two eyes. Right?

Ilona 25:28

Yeah, when you cut your nails.

Sukhdev Virdee 25:30

Yes. So what kind of a thought is uh the eye thought? It is a thought that has been imagined. How I give examples of uh the pink elephant. So if I tell you to think of an elephant, you have an image of an elephant immediately. You know what an elephant is, you know that there's a real creature that is called an elephant. Brilliant. It points to a real thing. Now, if we take that image and paint it pink and we give the elephant wings, now there's a flying pink elephant in your mind. Yes, it's right. The thought of the pink elephant is real. We can't deny it, the thought is real, but does it point to a real thing that is pink elephant flying? No, that is an imagination. There is no pink elephant flying anywhere, except in your mind. So that what is what kind of thought is that? It's imagined. We have imagined a pink elephant in the same way, the I thought is a thought that has imagined this to be itself. There is no I in this that I can point to and take out. It's an imaginary thought. Now, what is more peculiar about the I thought, the ego, since you asked about the ego, the mind has many thoughts. It has two uh unlimited thoughts, but they're only four kinds. So we think, we know, we remember, and we identify. These are the four functions of the mind. We think, we think, we know, we know, we remember, remember, we identify and identify. So in Advaita Vedanta, it is uh manas buddhi chit ahankar. So there's the thinking mind. Should I, shouldn't I, should we? I I I'm not I'm deciding, is thinking. The mind is wavering, and then I stop, I got it, I understand. Okay, I or I stop, I didn't understand, or I stopped, and I got it or I didn't get it. Now that's a thought, that's the intellect. So there's the mind, thinking mind, and the intellect. Now, this is the things that you know or you don't know. That's part of your intellect, and all this is stored in the memory through experience. So you have thoughts that can come up since you had uh since childhood. You can remember something that you haven't remembered for so many years. It's in the memory, it's still in the form of a thought. So these are all different thoughts. Now there's one peculiar thought which does something very strange. It comes and says, over it over. That thought comes and says, Whatever you're thinking, I think. Whatever you know, I know. Whatever you remember, I remember. You see what that thought is doing. The mind thinks, the mind knows, the mind remembers, but then there's this thought that comes and says, No, not you, I do it. I am thinking. It has done nothing at all, it was not in the picture, the mind was doing everything. Thoughts were happening on their own, understanding happening on its own, and this thought comes and says, I am doing it. Now, all the other thoughts keep changing throughout life, right from birth. You have different thoughts till now. The I thought is constant, it has never changed, it has been there throughout, and it has scrutinized and examined and learned and understood everything else except itself.

Ilona 29:25

Right. It's like it has never been looked at it.

Sukhdev Virdee 29:31

And it is scared of that, it's like the thief, you know, shouting, uh, looking for the thief himself, shouting that somebody's stolen something. Uh so because if it turns back, it will be found out to be unreal, and that is equivalent to the fear of death for the ego. It's like if I am seen through this entire person that has been built up is gonna crumble, the entire story is gonna go for a toss. So it's scared of that, and so it will do everything to stay alive. How does it do that? It will bend to what you want, so it will become a seeker, it will get that the person, okay. Since you're really uh looking for the truth, let's go into books, let's read, let's understand, let's go into the temples, let's worship, let's go into Kriya Yoga and do some yoga. You know, now I'm on the path, I am a seeker. The I thought is still there. It is keeping everything else busy so that you never sit and stop. Like you said, just sit and look at yourself and until you don't get it. So it will not let the person sit and turn their attention towards it. It will try everything. That's why you have people who are still seeking, because that seeking keeps the ego alive. I am a seeker. In childhood, I wanted toys, I wanted sweets, I wanted cakes. When I grew up, I wanted a partner, I wanted a house, I wanted a career. Now, in my uh uh later years, I want to become a seeker, I want to know the truth, I want to understand God. The I remains the same. The lollipop has become seeking, the lollipop has changed from a lollipop to God or to the self. The I is still there, intact, nothing has happened to it. I want a lollipop, I want to know the truth. You see, the eye is still there. Yeah, it will do everything to stop that self-reflection, and that's the beauty of it as well. Sorry, you go on. I I can go on for hours.

Ilona 31:56

I I want to bring up an important point here because that I is imagined. Yes, it's imagined that entity as it is thought to be here, is imagined. So in in truth, it cannot do anything, it doesn't think, it doesn't stop, it it is not afraid to die. There's something else going on. There is a pattern, a movement, uh contraction. That is not a thing that wants anything, that is not a thing that can do your thing or uh discover or awaken. It's just energy that feels uh solid until it's questioned. So when when there is a message, even like non-duality message um saying there is nobody there, it is still talking to that imaginary eye and saying that seeker or that um individual cannot get but even from that non-duality message it's imagining that eye as something rather than being a pattern, rather than being a movement. Okay. Even the non-duality message itself is directed to an imagined thing.

Sukhdev Virdee 33:23

Yes, yes.

Ilona 33:25

So no wonder many seekers are confused.

Sukhdev Virdee 33:30

Because it's all a concept, everything in non-duality that we teach, everything I spoke is all rubbish when you experience it.

Ilona 33:39

Yeah.

Sukhdev Virdee 33:40

Because we when you experience it, everything you speak, every the path becomes useless when you experience it. You don't need you don't need uh to read about how an apple tastes if you just but take a bite, you experience it. Any amount of reading will not tell you what it tastes like. When you experience it, there is no question, there is no doubt. Exactly. Um, and then the question also comes up uh since we're talking about the ego. So, where did this ego come from? How did it all start? And then you go back into childhood when you are a child, you you didn't know anything, and then slowly conditioning was happening. Your parents tell you, you you you have a name, so you they refer to you as this with the name. You slowly the mind starts to understand that this is me, and because this is me, everything else is not me. And then that uh that identity is carried on for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, 80 years, and then it becomes really difficult to undo it or uncondition it because how can you come and tell me I am not what I think I am when I have been this for 50 years, 60 years? Who are you to question who I am? You know, you can question everything else, but I don't know myself. That would be absurd. That's what a seeker would say. I mean, I know you know, I can be wrong about everything. How can I be wrong about what I am? So that I has been conditioned so deeply that number one, turning towards it becomes a difficult, and then secondly, uh survival, or it turns out what will I do with this, even if I get it? Is there any benefit that I will get out of it? No. Awareness, consciousness is absolutely useless, doesn't do anything for your life. Will I become happier? No, will I become sad? No, nothing will happen, nothing will change, and everything will change.

Ilona 35:54

I think what one thing that changes is that it's the where we are looking from. Yeah, recognition, simple, yeah, yeah, like like you said, awakening is awakening to reality. So awakening here is where am I looking from? Not from uh imagined, you know, I yeah, but from from presence or from being from openness, yeah.

Sukhdev Virdee 36:24

So I get a lot of these same questions. So if reality is everywhere, see uh Advaita Vedanta is really good in one way. Um, if we talk about the reality, the absolute truth, first you need to know what you mean by the absolute truth. But anyway, if the absolute truth is everywhere, it must be here. Yeah, if it is every time, it must be now. And if it is in everything, then it should be in anything I choose to point my finger to. And you should be able to show me the absolute reality in that. And if you can't show me that, then there's no point of talking because you will ask me to believe in something. So Advaita Vedanta goes on to show right now, right here, in anything that you choose to point to, you should be able to see the reality. And that dismantled logically without having to believe anything. And the best examples are like uh when we go to school, in when we are little children, we look up, we see a blue sky, and we think there's a blue dome, a blue sky. The sky is what color? It's blue in color. And then we go to school, we learn science in science that the sky is actually colorless, it has no color, it is transparent, that's what the sky is. Now you learn that and you understand it. Now, because you have understood it, when you look back up, will you see a colorless sky? No, it will still be blue. So when you realize your true nature, your true self, why doesn't everything around you change? Why doesn't everything seem connected? It will still look like that, but now you have a recognition. The word recognition is so nice, so good. Um, to cognize something is to know something, to recognize is to know the reality or to know that thing again. Recognize. So I see a blue sky, I recognize a colorless sky. I see a million different things around me, I recognize one existence. I think a million thoughts, I recognize one consciousness. You see, the thought is still there, but I know the deeper reality is consciousness. The things are still there, I know the deeper reality is existence, unbroken, infinite. Yeah. Sorry.

Ilona 39:13

Thank you.

Sukhdev Virdee 39:14

So yeah, the this these these kind of uh uh and the I think very few people talk of these things. Everyone's still talking about realizing their true self and realize you're not this and that, and that's good, and I appreciate that. It's good, I it helped me a lot. But then um in my book series as well, when it's about a st it's a it's in a story form where a seeker comes from America to India to find God, and then finally he realizes himself, his true self. But then one of the parts of the book of the series deals with what happens after. Very few books talk about what to do after that, how to integrate back into life. Should I just leave it all and just sit down and do nothing? Because it doesn't matter anyway. No, that's not what it's meant to do in the beginning, and there are very few people who are teaching that or talking about it, and that's the only reason why I'm sharing this because I did take the effort to understand it word by word, and uh they are brilliant teachings if you understand them intellectually, like the Upanishads. In the Upanishads, there's a story where a young boy comes back from boarding school back home, and he's full of pride that I have come from the best boarding school, I I have learned this, I've learned that, I have so much knowledge. And the father, who's an enlightened being, senses that his son is full of pride. And so he asks the son, son, did they teach you that by knowing which everything is known? And the son is taken aback, what I learned this, I learned that, I know how to do this, I know how to do this, but that by knowing what everything is known, no, they didn't teach me that. So he tells the father to teach him, and so his examples are like in those days they used to have a lot of pottery. So clay pot. If you know what a pot is made of, it's made of clay, right? So if you know what clay is, then you know the essence or the reality of all pottery. It could be in Pluto, it could be in the end of the universe. If it's made of clay, you know what it is. Because you know the essence, the reality. What can be different? The name can be different of it, the form can be different, it may have a different use, but you said clay, I know what clay is. So anything in the universe made of clay, I understand. So if I understand what a thing is, then I know everything, the essence of everything. If I know what a thing is, everything is known. How? The essence, what is a thing? Now that's where it goes into now breaking what is a thing. A thing is that which has a name, a form, a use, appears within time and space. That's what a thing is. The entire universe is nothing but things or objects in time and space. That's it. There's nothing else, it's an object in time and space. Everything in the universe. And you and if if you can uh you know, sorry, if you have any questions that can counter this, I would love to hear that. Can you think of anything in the universe which is not a thing that is in time and space? It's a uh by a thing, I would mean an object, an effect, or anything that is a thing. So a ghost has a name. You just mentioned the word ghost, it has it, it has a form, it looks like this, it does this, and it has a use, it appears in time and space, it's not everywhere.

Ilona 43:20

Okay, I was just joking, but that's a good idea.

Sukhdev Virdee 43:22

Yeah, so see how simple it becomes. If I understand the universe, you what is the universe? Things in time and space. That's it. Now you can open it further. Okay, so what do you mean by things? So let's look at what a thing is. A thing is that which has a name, a form, a use. It appears within time and space. What is a name? A name is only a sound that has a particular meaning to you. Nothing more than that. The form is the physical perception that you can perceive through with your five senses. That's a form. And a use is just the movement. Everything is changing. So if it moves, it can be useful. If it's still, it can't be used for anything. So everything is changing, it has a use. So that's why in the old traditions they say, what is the truth? It's nameless, it's formless, it's stillness, it's timeless, spaceless, everything less, less, less. You see that? We can't say what it is, but we can say what it is not. And so people who have realized that they are not a thing and are still confused with the mind. I tell them now, you understand your awareness, you are not a thing. That's perfectly good. Let's understand what a thing is. This is sparse. Because that will put the mind to rest completely. What does the mind want to know? Actually, what does the mind want to know? The mind wants to know everything. If it knew everything, it would have nowhere to go. Nothing to do. It would come to rest. There is nothing to do, I know, I know everything. Right? So concepts will give you different ways of looking at the same thing. So this is an apple, that's a banana, that's an orange, this is a chair. So many different things. But just like the ego, what is the root cause? What is a thing itself? It's a name. Name has nothing to do with the chair. See, a chair, if you don't call it by the word chair, it remains as it is. Right? So nothing changed. The name means nothing. The form is something that has just appeared. How? A chair is made of wood. It was a tree before it was cut down. It wasn't always a chair. It will not always remain a chair. It's the form that we are calling a wood, it's temporary. And so, how does non-duality come into this? Now we are separating things and thoughts. A thing cannot exist without its thought. They are simultaneous, they arise simultaneously. You cannot have a thing without its thought, and you cannot have a thought without a thing. You cannot think without an object. If you have a thought, it means there's an image in the mind which has a form, it has a word, that's a thing. And outside, it's the same. So a thing and a thought arise together. And because they arise together, we infer what we call the mind. So if there are no thoughts, there are no things, there is no thing called the mind. But because there's a thing, I perceive it, there must be a mind. Because I see smoke, there must be fire. I can't see the fire, but because I see smoke, there must be a fire. So because I can see something, there must be a mind. Because I can have a thought, there must be a mind. Without any thought, anything, no mind. You see, everything is in the mind. The mind is not another kind of thing. All thoughts are in the mind. The mind is not another kind of thought. So, how are they non-dual? You cannot have a thing without a thought. You cannot have existence without consciousness. When I was talking about existence and consciousness, they are not separate because a thing and a thought arise together. Thing in existence, thought in consciousness, they are both one and the same. You cannot have a thing without a thought. It's one, they are not separate, they are not two. So the um sorry. Uh if you have questions, I would love to hear them because I've uh I love this. This is the kind of talks that uh this is this is how uh a thinker's mind should work, or these are the questions that a seeker should ask um after realizing the truth, not before that.

Ilona 48:25

I see.

Sukhdev Virdee 48:27

Yeah, not before that, obviously.

Ilona 48:29

The first step would be before that, you before then before that there is more important thing to do.

Sukhdev Virdee 48:36

Yes, because if you understood all this before that and you got it, that's when you'll say, I understand it, but it means nothing, it's not changed my life at all. Right, it's intellectual knowledge.

Ilona 48:49

Yeah, you can read a thousand books and have full of words and write a book, but then still not know it deeply.

Sukhdev Virdee 49:00

So when I realized nothingness, I always to question. My questions were like, Why are we calling it awareness? Why not aware? What's the difference? Why awareness? Yeah, why consciousness? Why nothingness? Emptiness, mindfulness. What is this ness that everybody's adding? Why is it so important? Because to be aware is a function of the mind. When we add the word, the suffix ness at the end of any word, it means that word's quality without the word. The quality of that without the word. So awareness, aware is a function of the mind. I can be aware of something, but awareness, aware without the mind. Now, just awareness, just being aware. I am conscious without the mind. So it's just consciousness. There's nothing to be conscious. What else can we say? Nothingness, emptiness, all this. So ness, these are questions that should come up. That's what a seeker should ask. Why awareness? Why not any other word? Why not let's say appleness? Why not orangeness? That's what a seeker should ask.

Ilona 50:26

You know, good point. Because I don't use word awareness because it's a noun and it's easily translated into an object or thing, you know. Even though what what you explain now makes sense completely, it's uh it's like the fragrance without the flower. Yeah, yeah. Essence. But I use the word knowing because you can't make knowing into a thing. Where people can go to connect with you or read your books. Are they on Amazon?

Sukhdev Virdee 51:03

Okay, yes.

Ilona 51:05

And do you have a website?

Sukhdev Virdee 51:07

Books, books on um uh Amazon. Yeah, I have a website, it's just my name, subdevverdi.com. Um, I have a YouTube channel, it's uh at the rate subdevurdi my name again. Uh I've just started posting about a month back. Um, yeah, apart from that, um, earlier on what I did was I had made up some courses, and then I realized I had some books, ebooks, and I realized that nobody really reads ebooks anymore, nobody really uh really reads uh PDFs anymore. And almost 97%, they say, of people who buy courses don't complete them. So I put up my course, I I put everything up on my website and my channel, everything is for free. So the only thing that I I I I keep to myself is my time. That's it. So if you go onto Amazon on KDP, all my books are free. You can read them for free there. Um, all everything on my website, everything on my YouTube channel. Um, that's all free. Uh that's so that's all I do. So if I I am working with anybody, it's always one-on-one. I don't do any group teachings, I don't do any coaching, I don't do any uh Zoom classes, I don't do all that. So I I only work with one-on-one with anybody because I see that's where the transformation takes place. Um, where you can pinpoint where somebody might be stuck, you know?

Ilona 52:42

That's that's exactly right.

Sukhdev Virdee 52:45

Yeah. Otherwise, uh you can carry on understanding more concepts, and you don't know what you're looking for because it can't be known. So you don't know what you're looking for. You can just carry on adding more knowledge, and now first you didn't have the knowledge that was the problem. Now you have too much knowledge, that becomes the problem, you know. So I find one-on-ones, one-on-ones uh work better. There's actual transformation that happens where you can work with somebody and they can express their uh problems or their doubts, their confusion, and you can find out where they might be stuck. Because a lot of times I've seen that there are people who understand it all, yet within they don't feel right.

Ilona 53:39

So that's the main question. Yeah.

Sukhdev Virdee 53:42

They can't put it into words, they don't know how to put it into words, and they can't talk to anybody else about it because it seems so absurd. And so when you work with somebody like that, uh you easily pick out where they might be stuck, and when you see through that, it's like the last stroke of the wood cutter to chop the tree down, you know. You can keep you can give a thousand strokes, but then the one stroke, which was not different to the thousand previous, it's the same stroke, but that one cuts down the tree. Um, so I work with people on that level where so my my thing is that you would not need any scripture, any you would not need me after that. That's what somebody should do. But like I said in the beginning, a teacher wants you to understand, not to be you to believe them, so that when you understand, you're independent, you don't need the teacher anymore. So I'm I that's all I do, yeah. Sorry.

Ilona 54:45

Ah, wonderful. Thank you so much.

Sukhdev Virdee 54:48

Oh, I thank you. It's an honor. I don't know what I spoke, but anybody listening to it, it's all rubbish, you know. You can negate it all. I spoke utter crap. Um just realize be with what you truly are. And if you need intellectual clarity on that, then it's worth seeking it. If you don't need it, it's perfectly fine.

Ilona 55:18

Okay, well, thank you so much. It's like they have such a pleasure to meet you and talk to you and share. And thank you, everyone, for watching, listening. And you can put your questions or observations, noticeings in the comments. And see you next time. Bye for now.