You Already Know There is No Separate Self. Why Doesn't it Feel That Way?

Here's the Buzzsprout description for episode 133, in your voice, mentioning the live Zoom recording and the open invitation to join next time.

You can already understand that there is no separate self, clearly and without doubt, and still feel that nothing has changed. The understanding sits in the mind like a fact you have memorised, while life keeps arriving with the same fears, the same upsets, the same quiet sense that something still isn't right.

This episode is a recording of a live Zoom meeting, and it moves through three parts. It opens with a talk for the seeker who looked for the self, found nothing, and quietly decided that meant they had failed. We look at the expectation waiting underneath the search, and at what happens when you turn back toward the very nothing you keep dismissing.

From there I sit with a few people, and two of those exchanges stay with me. George is eighty-five and has understood for over ten years that there is no separate self, yet still wants to know how to get there. Together we look at how an upset is really an energy moving in the body, and how the me is a story that borrows its weight from the feeling underneath it. Then I speak with Sebastian, and we follow a lifelong guilt down into the body, into the shame beneath it, and into the young child who first learned it. This is where the looking becomes a kind of healing.

If you understand all of this clearly in the mind and still feel it hasn't quite landed in the body, this conversation may speak to where you actually are. These meetings happen live, and you are warmly welcome to join the next one. You can find the details and stay in touch here: https://zcmp.eu/1XWa

Music by Valdi Sabev. In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Transcript

Ilona 0:00

You can already understand that there is no separate self, clearly and without doubt, and still feel that nothing has changed. The understanding sits in the mind like a fact. You've memorized. Well life keeps arriving with the same fears, the same upsets, and the same sense of that something isn't right. You are listening to Awakening Now, a podcast for those in the process of awakening. This is episode 133. You already know there is no separate cell. So why doesn't it feel that way? My name is Ilona Ciunaite. I am a guide, author, and co-creator of the Liberation Unleashed. For over 14 years I've been supporting seekers in discovering peace and freedom through self-inquiry and direct experience. Well, look at the expectation waiting underneath the search. And that what happens when you turn back towards the very nothing you keep dismissing. From there, I speak to a few people, and two of these exchanges stand out. George is 85. He has understood for over 10 years that there is no separate self and still wants to know how to get there. Together we look at how an upset is really an energy moving in the body, and how the me is a story that borrows its weight from the feeling underneath it. Then I sit with Sebastian, and we follow a lifelong guilt down into the body, into the shame beneath it, and into a young child who's first learned it. This is where the looking becomes a kind of healing, where the nervous system finally hears what was true all along. If you understand all this clearly in the mind and still feel it hasn't quite landed in the body, I think this conversation will speak to you. Let's begin. For me, I don't find anything. So either I'm doing it wrong, it doesn't work, or the whole thing is a scam. Non-reality is just something being sold that is not true, or I don't know what to think. It's been a while. I've been looking, searching, looking for this what I am, what is this me? What is it? Trying to find it. I find nothing, literally nothing. And even though I see that, nothing changes. My daily life is the same, seeking is the same, everything is just like a normal Thursday. And if you have been in this place and moved on from here, that's wonderful. But if you are here in this place, I'm speaking to you. Looking is not wrong, non-reality is not a scam. The expectation that something needs to change or should look different, or once I see this, finally it will give me a prize of a happy ever after state. That's wrong. This expectation is robbing. It's a thief in a house that is taking attention away, saying, Oh, there's something missing. This is not it, there should be something else. Because when I look, I see nothing, and that's just not enough. But let's look at this nothing. When I look for a separate self, literally, when I ask this question, is there a separate self? Yes or no? And I really, really want to know that. That question opens something. Maybe for a moment, for a few, the mind goes blank. Try that now. Do you have that experience? Is there this I is there this separate self or not? Do you get that nothing? Or empty or blank, whatever whatever name the mind gives to this. Maybe a little pause in between the thoughts in between something that wasn't something that comes. That nothing is the answer. That open blankness, that space, that quiet is the answer. And why it is difficult to take that for the answer is just because the mind has ideas how it should look, how it should feel, how it should last forever, and um it should give me something, or I will feel differently. It's just waiting for some grand event, or oh my god, a gift from the universe. Suddenly, this peace comes in and replaces every emotion that is here, or every situation that is not favorable. And that's what seeking essentially is waiting for something else, waiting for something to happen that is not this. This is too simple or too ordinary. And if something inside can hear this and recognize that nathi or that openness as the answer, this is a possibility, an opportunity, or a moment where all these expectations can start collapsing. It's not like oh my god, I finally got it. It's more like it cannot be this simple. That's ridiculous. Is this what I was looking for? No. And if you feel a disappointment, it's just a pain of expectations that are burning in a pocket, waiting to be fulfilled, and there is no human on the search of any kind, not expecting something. Because by now it's 2026, and YouTube is full of videos, books are full of words, and everyone has got something to say about awakening or enlightenment or uh separate self. It seems like everyone's getting it, and they may describe some experiences, or they describe some states, and oh now I need to find that in my experience, but it's not like it. So we keep looking and looking, not at this blankness or the silence that reveals itself every time you ask, but looking for something to fulfill that image in the mind that wants it to be in a certain way, and it can have some beautiful ideas there. The awakening is of beautiful love and peace, but the awakening is not a state. States come and go, sure, we can have awakening states or enlightening states or pleasant states or blissful states or horrible states, they all come and go. However, that silence that beyond words, beyond concepts, doesn't come and go. It sits quietly underneath every experience. And when you are waiting for some awakening to happen, that silence is waiting for attention to land on it fully to take this as the answer to all the questions you have. So let's ask this question again and just see what happens. Is there a separate soul? Is there I some entity in charge of life happening? Anyone at home? And now you can just watch what's happening in the mind. If there is a quiet resignation, opening, disillusionment, or just like, yay, that's that's pretty awesome. Or there may be a lot of argument going on. So whatever it is for you, it's how it is for you. There is no right and wrong here, it's just an opportunity, an openness for you to see what's going on in your own mind when this question is asked, and you you may have heard this thousand times. There is no me, there is no you, there is no one in here, there's nothing to do, there is nothing you can do, and all of that is true, but it depends where you are looking from. If you are looking from the eyes of a seeker, someone that wants to find uh the end of seeking or peace or truth, hearing statements like that is it's not really helpful. It's not the statements that open the door, but rather the questions. Because the question is asking for an answer. It's not giving you an answer, it's asking for an answer. And when a question is asked, there's something coming up to meet it. So instead of there is nobody here, well, how do you know that there is somebody here? Is there? I'm here, right? There is being here, there is being present, there is noticing that something is happening. I thought I comes in. That's noticing that I thought comes in. Something is happening. There is waiting for something to happen. There's noticing that. Maybe there is relaxing. There's noticing that. But whatever is noticing is not a thing. It's not some entity inside the bag of skin. It's simply here. Are you here? Are you a thought? Are you a feeling? Maybe you are a state? Are you a state? What comes and goes? It's like waves in the ocean, rising and falling, rising and falling. It's not the ocean, even though it's the ocean itself that waves. So it's that silence underneath all the experiencing that is waving as experiences. Like where are these words coming from right now? Where are these words landing in right now? It's just waves. It's quite silly to imagine that there is a wave outside of the ocean somewhere making the ocean wave. It's like a super wave. But that's how we imagine ourselves to be outside of life, making life happen, separate from life. Look at this, I feel separate thereof, I am separate. But there's just a feeling passing through. You're here. So when you are looking for a self and cannot find it, what you find is this open, quiet space before it's being labeled. That space is what you are looking for. And it's also where you're looking from. Everything else is an amusement park with all the rides. Sometimes there is no getting off. So what you are is not trapped, is not unenlightened, it's not unawake. It's not an eye that is waiting for some miracle to free it from its misery and from its existence. So one more time, let's ask this gently, softly, with a curiosity Is there an eye at all? As a separate soul outside of life, making life happening.

Speaker 1 17:50

So sometimes my mind just goes in loops about them. Like I'm not them, but I'm also everything.

Ilona 17:58

Yeah, yeah. But what is that I then identifies with everything?

Speaker 1 18:08

Nothing.

Ilona 18:09

Well, everything is, right?

Speaker 1 18:12

Yeah, I guess it just feels like separation when I'm saying like I'm not that. Well, I you but then uh it's just not nameable.

Ilona 18:29

It's just yeah. Yes, and that not nameable is everything. So it's also this? Everything's included, and I guess it just it can't be known. So yes, but there is knowing itself. Like, do you know my hand is moving right now? How do you know that? Because I see it, yeah. You see it and you know it. You see what you you know what you see, there's knowing part of them, and if you if you uh like to replace that word with awareness or consciousness, knowing being aware, that being aware has no form, no shape, no nothing, but that being aware is always here, yeah, because when it comes, I am everything, it's already this idea of me being everything. Oh wow, look at that! Oh look at that everything, but the everything is already here, everything is, and it shows up as this as well, and as everything else, yeah.

Speaker 1 20:15

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I think a part of me it's like I can when I ask the question, like, is there a separate me? And I get the silence and the thoughts stop. Um I never I think that there was an expectation that I would experience like peace ever, but the thoughts stop, and there's a lot of fear, like there's a lot of energy or tension and fear and feelings in the body that never goes away. Um that's very questionable. That it never goes away? Yeah. Is it here now? There's some energy. Yeah, yeah, and like it it feels like resistance. There's like energy and then like resistance to the energy at the same time. Is it here when you go to sleep?

Ilona 21:23

I don't know. I don't know. No, we have all these ideas that the worst ideas to have is like always, all never like generalizing because when I put an um this never goes away, it's just an idea because there is no such a thing, everything moves, changes, there isn't permanent, right? There's no sensation that is constant, everything changes. It's like looking at the ocean and saying, Oh, that way. Is permanent. Everything else is moving, right? But that wave, no. It's here like a wall of bricks.

Speaker 1 22:09

Yeah. It seems like I'm like recreating the experience.

Ilona 22:14

Yeah. Yeah, the mind. You're not doing that. It's just mind waving. Showing you the beliefs that are having consequences on your well-being.

Speaker 1 22:27

Yeah. So I can't stop it. All I can do is see th see it.

Ilona 22:34

See it. Recognize it. Look at it. Cool. That idea again. Always. It's always like this. How can that be?

Speaker 1 22:48

So I guess that means even seeing the feelings that are associated with it at the same time. Because it's it's like one in the same, I guess.

Ilona 22:57

Yes. Because the thoughts, oh, how to say, not every thought is a belief, but beliefs are made of thoughts. And the beliefs are the ones that have a charge. You feel something. When you believe something, feel it. And what you feel is like, don't touch my belief. This is how it is. I know how it is. I am right. Don't even go there. Talk to the hand. My belief is right. Right? There is some kind of force that protects that belief from being um changed or dismantled or discharged. That's what we are up against. We have to stop and look and see what these beliefs are. So by looking at them, recognizing them, they get discharged.

Speaker 1 23:55

What makes sense? It's amazing that I'd be holding on to beliefs that are hurting me, that feel bad all the time, you know. All the time. Oh not all the time. All the time. I see, I see. Thank you. You're welcome.

Ilona 24:20

But this is the problem with the language. It's the code. The programming is written in in language and it's code. And if I say it's all the time or always, that's the belief. Saying, I'm still here. Are you gonna let me go or not?

Speaker 1 24:40

So they want to be let go. It's like they're coming up to see through.

Ilona 24:44

To be let go. No, but you do. I mean the belief is pr self-protecting. Belief is like crystallized structure through which we perceive the world and everything. But if it's not right, if it's having bad consequences, I wanna see through them. Not not the eye that is imagined I don't know, Mickey Mouse kind of entity. But there is knowing of discomfort. There is knowing that something is not right, it doesn't feel good. And it's recognizing that there is something that could resolve if I just give my attention to it.

Speaker 1 25:47

Thank you. Thank you.

Ilona 25:58

Hello, George.

George 26:01

Hello everybody. As you probably know, I've been, I use the word seeker for well over ten years trying to see through the illusion of the separate self. Now, looking for the separate self, it's clear to me, can't find one. So that's clear, very clear intellectually. The problem is it doesn't seem to. One thing I've been doing is setting a timer on my phone for gong to go off about every 20 minutes, and to remind me to just stop. And B. And I do that for maybe 20 seconds or so. So I've been doing that for a while. Technique number one doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere.

Ilona 27:36

What do you want to get?

George 27:38

Okay, where I want to get, I want to see through the illusion of the separate self. I want to experience peace of mind.

Ilona 27:51

Okay, when you ask this question, is there a separate self at all? What happened? Ask it now.

George 28:00

Let me ask it. Is there a separate self? Well, I would answer no. But that answer sort of comes from the mind. Everyone says there's no separate self. I can't find a separate self. So very logically, there ain't none. So that's that enough. Well, no, it's not enough. Why do you like it? Because I go through my I'm talking to you now, it's clear I'm not a separate self. But when I go through my day, I act like a separate self. For example, well, I think I'm a doer. I think I can make decisions.

Ilona 28:53

Okay.

George 28:54

I think that um oh I get upset because I've made mistakes in the past. I look to the future and very upset. I'm eighty-five years old going downhill, both physically and mentally. So I look to that future. Don't like what I see. That's what I do.

Ilona 29:35

What do you expect to do?

George 29:39

What I expect to do is to see that these thoughts that I have thoughts about the future are just thoughts. I want to see that they're not me. They may or may not have any validity. But I guess what I expect is to find some distance from my emotional reaction. Um regret about the past, fear for the future.

Ilona 30:26

Yeah. But seeing seeing that there is no separate self doesn't cancel the emotion.

George 30:36

No, but it should cancel my oh no, it doesn't cancel the emotions, but I'm hoping that it would give me some distance from them. Is that realistic?

Ilona 30:50

No.

George 30:53

Okay, so let me start again. I want to do that.

Ilona 30:55

When you say distance, when you say distance, what does that what how would that look like?

George 31:04

Well, if I watch a TV program and the principal character is suffering, you know, I can sort of experience that suffering, but it ain't me, you know, it's just a TV program. But with life, it's different.

Ilona 31:25

Yes.

George 31:30

So I forgot your question. I I want I'd like to experience peace of mind.

Ilona 31:35

How would you imagine the difference? Uh the distance between you and emotion. I don't know. I've never had that.

George 31:52

I don't know. That's a good question. I haven't had that experience. I guess what I want to have I I want to have peace of mind, knowing that from time to time emotions will arise, but that my general level of being is peaceful. That's my hope and expectation.

Ilona 32:25

How do I get there? How about right now? No problem right now. Oh god, that's how you get there.

George 32:44

I can at any time stop and be and relax.

Ilona 32:58

How do you get here? Pardon? How do you get here? Because you're looking for something, but you already get here. You already can experience the peace and it's okay to feel what you feel.

George 33:15

Yes, I can experience it momentarily.

Ilona 33:20

Yes, moment by moment.

George 33:24

But I don't, yes, you're right. If I could do that moment by moment, it would be it would be all over. But I only do it when I stop and remember, when my phone reminds me, or when I talk to you. I generally do not do that. Also, I should remark, when I do that, I can't do anything else. So I have to stop life to do that. So I'm not able to no, I have to sit silencely silently and not move. So I cannot go through my ordinary life, eat meals.

Ilona 34:18

The practice could be not to stop doing what you're doing, but keep doing what you're doing and be okay with that.

George 34:28

Keep doing well, like I can I can't keep what I'm doing, doing what I'm doing, and also and also get some notion of beingness. That's what I can't do. I can't do them both at the same time.

Ilona 34:53

When you are in some action or some activity, do you stop being when I'm in some activity?

George 35:02

That's a good question. Of course, I never stop being, okay. When I'm in some activity, that's a good question. When I'm in some activity, I'm really actively doing something.

Ilona 35:12

Yeah.

George 35:13

So everything's okay because there's no separate me there. I'm just doing what I'm doing. I'm in the flow. I'm doing some activity, I'm working on something, I'm fixing something, I'm soldering something, I'm doing something. Everything's fine. I'm in the flow. There's no separate me at that time.

Ilona 35:33

Then when does the one this separate me come in?

George 35:37

When you almost every time else. After I get done. All right. The separate me came in while I was sitting here before I started talking to you. The separate me. All right, so there's one example. Uh-huh. In fact, the separate me is coming in right now. In other words, right now, I can feel in my voice some upset, some not okayness. The peace of mind that I want is not present right now. But I can create it if I need.

Ilona 36:18

But does that that annoyance is what you are?

George 36:25

No, that annoyance. Well, when I feel that upset, I don't have the I don't ask the question whether that's who I am. When I have an upset, I just have the upset. And it's me having that upset. It's that separate self having that upset. I don't stop and ask the question.

Ilona 36:50

But there is no separate self.

George 36:53

No, there is no separate self.

Ilona 36:57

So it's not that a me comes in, it's that there is an energy of being upset shows up, or sensations of being uh not at ease show up, and then the narrative comes in at the same time saying that the me came in. There's just a sensation. Yes, and it's not you say it's so it's recognizing where you're putting this label separate self or me on a sensation, yes, it's like coupled with sensation, it seems like there is that's what you are, but you're you're here.

George 37:45

Yes, when I have a strong sensation, um even a weak sensation, like before you called on me when you were working with Sebastian, I experienced impatience. I mean, that's it's not very strong, it's just a mild sensation, you know.

Ilona 38:04

Um but does that mean that somehow this separate me marched in and said, Okay, now I'm here I have this impatience, or it's just a sensation that is arising.

George 38:19

I don't know. I mean, this sensation arose and it was not peaceful. I started out saying I had two techniques. Let me quickly outline the second, maybe you can help me there. What I'm trying to do is to notice that there's no doer here, no decider. And I've heard some videos and people say that very forcefully, and what I'm trying to do is to verify that in my own experience, hoping that once I verify that there's no doer and decider here, I'm hoping that that will eliminate any notion of a separate self and lead to peace of mind. That's my second technique. I don't know what I'm doing. So I've taken up too much time. What do I do?

Ilona 39:38

Nothing to do.

George 39:42

But if I do nothing things will persist as they have been.

Ilona 39:51

The question of Adora is noticing that everything is happening by itself.

George 40:01

Say that say that say some more about that.

Ilona 40:04

Everything is happening by itself. Everything is happening by itself.

George 40:14

Okay, everything is happening by itself.

Ilona 40:21

Itself, not myself, yourself, God's self itself, self hands.

George 40:29

Everything is happening by itself, yes, including my thoughts, yes, including my emotions, including my intentions. Yeah, am I correct?

Ilona 40:43

Yes, so rather than looking for some imagined dir or non-der, look at how everything is already flowing freely, effortlessly by itself.

George 40:56

Yes, that's my my second, that's my second technique is to try to give examples of that. So when I make a decision, oh I'm thirsty, I'm gonna get a drink, get a drink of water, just notice that the thirst came first, and the thought came later. So I'm trying to do what I'm trying to just notice that there's no doer here. Trying to give real life examples of that. Okay, and you see that as a possibly valid technique, right?

Ilona 41:35

Just noticing that everything is happening by itself. You can ask this question what is not happening by itself. That is a revealing question. Yes, okay. So what I think is the assumed, yes, yes, okay.

George 42:01

So what I shall do is I shall continue, continue. I use I hate to use the word trying, but I'm going to use the word trying to notice that everything is happening by itself. I will continue doing that, and I also continue my periodic.

Ilona 42:29

Yeah, when you're when your phone rings, see how everything is happening by itself. Then you can stop, take a seat, or think about it. It's just like, all right, hands are moving, wind is blowing, birds are singing. What is not happening by itself?

George 42:51

Okay, thank you very much, Ilona. I really do appreciate it, and thank you everyone else for listening to this. I don't know. I don't know how much this is relevant to other people, but thank you.

Ilona 43:02

Thank you, George. Always a pleasure. Sweet. Okay, Andrea, please.

Speaker 1 43:21

Hello, hi Lona. Hi Andrew. So nice to be here. Um, I'm not sure exactly what my question is, but I wanted to talk about like attachment to other people, or especially one one other person, because I feel like um huge amount of my energy goes towards this person during every day. And it's like I feel like I feel their energy, and I'm like tracking, you know, in my what they're doing, and I feel like it's somehow preventing me from being fully. where I am. Like my focus is on someone else a lot. Yeah. So I don't know what you can say about that.

Ilona 44:13

It's one one teaching that comes in is that there is no control. Yeah. The energy goes where it wants to go.

Speaker 1 44:33

Yeah, that's clear. I mean I've tried to stop it and or I mean I've tried to work with it in different ways, but it's kind of still happening.

Ilona 44:41

Yeah. So it's just let it do what it wants to do. It's already doing that anyway. Attachment is like oh this shouldn't be happening. I don't want this to be happening. It's already happening. So it's a recognition of it will play out when it will play out.

Speaker 1 45:08

Now it's like this and it's not a problem.

Ilona 45:21

No there's nothing wrong with you or with anything. But you can see that in this moment this this is how the energy wants to interact. It's not going to listen to the mind's um commands or low tantrums of what it should and shouldn't be doing it's also so straight or it's I think it's sticky because I don't understand it, you know it doesn't make sense to me but it's still happening. So it's yeah what if it's not happening there are these three magic words let's say so be it and then if there is something for you to see or to to learn from that experience it will reveal itself because it's no random it's not by accident but you can be curious not like trying to manage it but being curious that's great thank you so much cool okay Andrea Steven please now we have a few minutes hi uh Lona thanks for this thanks for everything you do I've got a couple of questions but I think they're not well maybe they're quite quick but can I ask you first of all since you've um you know had this awakening experience do you still fear death oh no but it wasn't because I saw that there is no Ilana running the show it was because I went on a on a trip and a meeting with um radius that's what I saw what I saw and after that there is no fear of death but let's say something happens and it's here then I will know for sure but I don't think about fear of death or anything like on a daily basis.

Speaker 2 47:34

You mean if if death was like right here now you would then you would find out for sure whether you're fearing or not yeah yeah but but in in in advance there's no sense of fearing death anymore. No for me it seems like wow I can't wait that's gonna be awesome take me home please okay well thank you that that was a quick question a good answer. So the second thing is and this is a little bit like what George uh said but I I do see that everything is happening by itself you know for instance just now I went to make a cup of tea I didn't I didn't plan it I didn't even realize I was doing it until I made it and started drinking it. But uh and again I see that but there's something about it that worries me because it's like something to do with and this is intellectual so I also see that but it's like about ethics it's like well if everything is happening and we're not doing anything well good bad body robber buggle somebody's house and steal stuff or it's all just happening so there's like there's no morality in it somehow you know and that sort of bothers me I have to say that it's even if it's true even if it actually this is the way things are right this is the way things are there's something about the fact that you know we want to do good and not do bad but if it's things just happening how can we blame people who do bad stuff good question.

Ilona 49:07

What's the answer you can only know about what's happening in your experience and what other people are doing you can't you can't really judge because you are not in their shoes but we have to judge because we have to protect other people from bad stuff and we also want to do good stuff right but yeah but that's what they say you are you you do the best you can with what's given for you.

Speaker 2 49:36

But who's doing it though I mean it's happening anyway because it feels almost like an infinitely complicated clockwork universe where things are just happening. Maybe that's what it is but there's something if you go into nature let's say you go in a forest every form is doing its own thing very very simple.

Ilona 50:05

Every form has got its own limitations like the tree cannot fly or the bug cannot um bring honey or something every form has got its own limitations and every it's the nature or the aliveness that is behind all that there is intelligence behind all that and we are not outside of nature we are how this nature is expressing us humans and some humans are more stupid or more silly than others some more intelligent some more emotional some more I mean every form is unique but every form has got its own limitations so if your limitation is not to go to steal you're not gonna go start stealing so you don't need to worry that that this is gonna somehow go wrong because it's already nature is doing its thing as this form as and through you and what is going on with other people is it's not for us to judge it's for us to discern to see but they're doing the best they can with what's given to them I'm gonna have to think about that. Okay thanks very much for today appreciate thank you Stu thank you everyone yes we have to finish now and it's wonderful to be here with you and we'll see you in the next meeting in the month or maybe soon thanks very much thank you thank you everybody thank you thank you everyone thank you by now guilt and doership stories very strong here I could say and yeah maybe can you help me three see see through the the clutter okay okay do you have anything concrete like uh alive something that is alive in you right now some situation or decision it's decision making I need to make decisions and the dual story is very strong and very much connected with guilt in a way feeling of guilt and story of guilt okay can we can we hook on on to that guilt and follow its lead and for that I will ask you to think for yourself so that you get that feeling of guilt come up just so that you feel it now is it here right now it's more the fear of guilt and blame and blame okay there's a lot going on now before we go into it can you tell me where in the body the energy is most contracted or most felt most alive right now stomach in the stomach okay okay um could you close your eyes and just focus on your stomach for a little bit just feel that energy is it okay to feel it right now it's okay yes okay okay can you tell that energy I see you just tell that energy I see you here you are I acknowledge you're here you can be here you are loud and say thank you for all the work you are doing for me I don't know what it is but I see you are working hard so thank you tell me what shows up in you it's it softens softens softens can you give it a hug just like oh you beautiful thing you're so contracted you're working so hard all the time yes very much yeah let's stay with it a little longer don't need to do anything just be with it let it be you can ask it show yourself fully show your true size true intensity let me see you what are you did you ask what are you yeah ask that energy yeah I guess it's a little child oh here we go it's a little child in a way oh so lucky the little one came in can you tell it hello little one hello little Sebastian oh I'm so happy you're here and when you look at this little child how is he looking what do you see is scared very much can you tell him I am here I see you and you are safe you're safe with me I can yeah yeah you are safe tell him it's just me and you there is nobody else here you are okay you can relax if you want and it's okay to be scared can I ask him to give you a hug as well hold him I can but maybe it is not ready yet. Okay there's shame a shame also oh ask him what are you ashamed of maybe it's um more something it it has learned from other people parents and like that shame is learned yes it is and it's also a useful thing you know shame when you do something you know it wasn't done right and then somebody tells you that it's like ah feel shame yeah it's very very helpful you know in a in a clear situation but not when it becomes part of identity can you tell the little boy that I love you no matter what and I truly want you to be happy free and you don't have anything to be ashamed of you can be yourself as you are and there's nothing wrong with you at all I see responding it's um bit little bit lighter but um he does not fully hear it he cannot fully accept it asking what have you done what have you done that you are ashamed I guess um he did not um parents just wanted him differently to be differently oh different uh huh well tell him can you do anything about who you are can you be someone else not so much I guess not at all not at all you can only be yourself you can only ever be yourself and can you tell the little one I love you as you are always yes I can and it's good to hear that to uh say that I love you as you are and you don't need to pretend and you don't need to make yourself smaller or hide I love you as you are and parents then know any better they were going through their own difficulty it's not your fault it's got nothing to do with you he hears it he hears it he likes to hear that's true you cannot be anyone else you are yourself you are enough and I love you no matter what and say you know what let's go and play let's go and play asking does he want to play not sure if he's ready to play okay maybe he wants to have a walk on a in a in a forest on the beach or in a mountain let's take him outside and just stay a little bit with him in nature yes he wants to walk with with me I guess. Okay take him out he seems to be okay in a way cool and you're a little bit shame to expose myself like this but uh it's okay too well shame is believing that there is something wrong with me but it's not true sensation in a belly more relaxed more at ease now you can say these words out loud just to see what happens I give myself full permission to be myself I give myself

Speaker 4 1:06:00

Full permission to be myself.

Ilona 1:06:05

Say that again.

Speaker 4 1:06:07

I give myself full permission to be myself.

Ilona 1:06:13

How does this land?

Speaker 4 1:06:24

There's a little bit of fear and also um feeling of strength both.

Ilona 1:06:33

Oh good. Fear can also be a little bit of excitement.

Speaker 4 1:06:41

Yeah, it's a little bit exciting. It's new information for my system, I guess.

Ilona 1:06:57

Yes, yes. And look at this. Fear is com not fear, I mean uh shame is completely useless. You know how?

Speaker 4 1:07:10

Okay.

Ilona 1:07:11

If you feel shame, does it help you?

Speaker 4 1:07:16

Not so much.

Ilona 1:07:19

If you feel shame, does it help people around you?

Speaker 4 1:07:28

It put it um protects me in a way. No, it doesn't from what from being seen, from being rejected, from being attacked.

Ilona 1:07:44

Well, you are being seen, and you are being rejected, and you are being attacked sometimes, and sometimes not shame doesn't protect from any of that. Okay, it's useless. I see it's useful if you let's say went to a friend's house, broke a vase, and lied about it, and they found out, and you're like, Oh my god, this is embarrassing. Yes, I did that, feeling shame, but it's a quick thing, it's a recognition that I've done something wrong, I don't want to do this again, move on. It's part of learning, but it's not part that we have to carry on our shoulders thinking that it's protecting me from being seen because you are seen as that. So if you recognize deeply that there is nothing wrong with you at all, or with anyone else, at all, there's no room for shame. You're doing the best you can in the conditions and what with whatever was given to you. You're doing the best you can. Is that correct?

Speaker 4 1:09:33

Maybe.

Ilona 1:09:35

Are you not doing the best you can in life?

Speaker 4 1:09:40

I don't know. I don't know to be honest.

Ilona 1:09:44

With what's given, with conditioning, with the belief system, with what's here, you don't think oh, this is the best, but I'd rather do something else.

Speaker 4 1:10:04

Maybe I do my best, maybe.

Ilona 1:10:08

Yeah, well, see that. See that you're already doing what you can do.

Speaker 4 1:10:20

There's a thought I could do better.

Ilona 1:10:24

Oh, not in this, not in this situation, not in this moment. Theoretically, yes, practically, no, yeah, true, maybe play with that, yeah. The problem with the mind it always goes to compare, very much, yes, yeah, and it doesn't compare you to let's say you ten years ago, and it mostly compares other people, other people's achievements, other people's life, other people's ideas to what to the image of you, to the image of you, and it's all happening in the same mind. Creates the image of you, creates the image of other people, and then it compares these two images and puts one image above the other.

Speaker 4 1:11:33

Yes, very much, very much.

Ilona 1:11:39

That's all useless.

Speaker 4 1:11:47

It definitely creates suffering. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Ilona 1:12:23

Oh, you're welcome. Some some new things to think about. Yes, yeah, and check what is true for you, not what other people say or what your mind thinks, what is true in your experience, yeah.