What Are You Really Looking For When You're Seeking Awakening?

Something in you is looking for relief right now, whether you call it awakening, peace, or simply wanting to feel okay again. If that's where you are, you're welcome to join Deep Looking Immersion: [LINK]

What are you really looking for underneath the hope for awakening? This episode comes from a live meeting, opening with a short talk on where seeking actually begins, not curiosity, but suffering, and the quiet hope that once the self is seen through, everything difficult will finally stop.

From there, four real conversations unfold. Ben, George, Swen, and Tammy each bring something different to look at, an old assumption about awakening, a fear of feeling good, a belief that something is wrong with them, and each one is met directly, as it happens rather than talked about from a distance.

Music by Valdi Sabev. In loving memory and gratitude for the music he shared.

Transcript

Ilona 0:00

Sometimes the greatest obstacle isn't suffering. It's believing that once you understand enough, the suffering will finally stop. You're listening to Awakening Now, a podcast for those in the process of awakening. This is episode 134. What are you really looking for when you are seeking awakening? Recorded from a live meeting. My name is Lona Tenaite. I am a guide, author, and co-creator of Deliberation Unleashed. For over 14 years I have been supporting seekers in discovering peace and freedom through direct experience. At the heart of this episode is a simple question: What are you really looking for underneath the hope for awakening? I open with a short talk on where the seeking actually comes from. Not curiosity, but suffering. And the quiet belief that once the self is seen through, everything uncomfortable will stop. Then we move into real conversations from the meeting itself. Ben, George, Swan, and Tammy each bring something different, an old assumption, a fear of feeling good, a belief that something is wrong with them, and we look at it together directly as it's happening. In this conversation, we explore why seeing through the self doesn't stop life's weather, why shame so often sits underneath the search and what it actually looks like to me the feeling instead of running away from it. If you ever caught yourself hoping awakening will finally make you okay, I think this one will speak to you. Let's begin. How do we get into this seeking? Because everyone is looking for something, right? And it can be found in different places. Um but I think what I found is that most people get into this seeking for spiritual awakening or enlightenment or whichever way you want to call it because of this suffering. This is what is seeking its fuel, this is where it really starts. And it's usually not for the truth or enlightenment or anything other than how to stop suffering, how to fix the situation, how to not feel these unwanted feelings. And when there is this non-duality idea or awakening is being shared and talked about, it seems like, oh, here's an exit. This is this is what I need to get in order to avoid these uncomfortable feelings or these uncomfortable situations that keep repeating themselves. So the seeking starts from trying to fix or trying to avoid or trying to get rid of something unwanted. Or once I get whatever the mind is saying you're gonna get, then the suffering will stop, or everything will be accepted, and everything will be allowed to be as it is. That kind of a story is a little bit strange because literally what it is saying is this if I realize that I'm not in control of weather, then the rain will no longer come. If I know that there is no self, then the suffering or unwanted emotions or unpleasant situations will no longer come. And it's good hook for seeking. I step into it, but it's not the truth. The truth is that once the recognition happens, it happens on a deeper level than the mind. It's a recognition of silence or spaciousness, openness that is always have been here. Like sky, it's always been here, it's not lost, it's not hiding because there are clouds, but the the movement of the clouds in the sky may create sometimes an illusion that the sky is covered with clouds, there is no sky there, it's just clouds. So the state from which the seeking starts is is this clouds. And the biggest one of them, mostly, that we all have is this feeling of being not good enough. Um low self-worth and the shame of being yourself, being you. And this is actually the the fuel for the seeking. How to feel okay, how to be comfortable in your own skin, how to enjoy your life. Eventually, this is what we all want. To relax and have fun and be of service and feel good about ourselves and our environment and everyone in it. But when we meet these clouds, meaning difficult relationships, difficult situations, then we want to get rid of them. And the seeking comes in looking for a way out. So I'm curious about you. How did your seeking start? And what what is the fuel? What is driving it? For me, many years ago it was it was suffering because I could see my close people in pain, suffering, and not being able to help them. That was my suffering. I wanted to fix them, change them, or make them feel better. But I did not know how. And for me that was one of the biggest pains why I got into this search. But at some point, wanting to change or fix turned into a real desire for truth. That's that's a different kind of seeking. It's no longer I don't care. I I don't care what happens anymore. I just want the truth. No matter what. It doesn't matter anymore. What's what's going to happen? I don't know what will happen. But through that desire for truth, no matter what, something started to open up because I was no longer focused on how this should look like or what this will be like. I didn't care anymore. In a way, it was through hopelessness. Um, I had to lose all my hope that I had, and that was a difficult time because we all hear how hope is important and you can't live without hope, and it's the most precious thing that you have, and it's so very human to hope. Yes, sure, in certain situations, but when the hope becomes another way to say that the life I have now is not good enough, and I hope that one day it will be different, that hope itself becomes an obstacle, and losing that obstacle actually opened quite a bit of space. So I noticed that so the seeking has gone for me. I don't know about you, but it went from trying to fix the situation, trying not trying to find a way not to feel into what the heck is really going on. I want the truth no matter what, and then really starting looking into what is actually going on. And I think it's important to know what is driving your seeking. Truly. At this point, there is no right or wrong, it's just seeing what is underneath this wanting to get and what to get. Something else. Anything. If it's to feel good, it's to feel good. There is nothing wrong with that. It's natural, it's normal. If it's the truth, again. Wonderful. Maybe this is a step closer to finding it. So let's start the conversation from that today. What are you really looking for? Okay, Ben. Hi. Oh, we don't hear you. You need to unmute yourself.

Ben 10:14

Okay, got it. Um hi. So, yes, all of the above uh very similar. Started uh looking from uh from a self-help, want my life better uh standpoint, and then more um what are these people talking about that doesn't make any sense? Like, how do I make sense of it? Uh, and then more genuine um seeking for truth. Uh and it it seems like there is another level of experience that's being okay with the way things are, which seems like it's a relief in itself that's that will allow for um you know being okay with all of the ups and downs of life. And that paradoxically seems desirable. Yes. And drive some seeking.

Ilona 11:17

Yes, yes, I clearly hear you. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, but how do you know that it's not alright or okay already?

Ben 11:35

This is where the loops come in because it's and it's and it's clear when it's when I can just relax and let all that drop away. Uh, but but the mind like ties itself into knots by saying it's it's okay the way things are, and even if it's not okay, that's okay. But how can that be okay because it doesn't feel okay? But even that's okay, and it just doesn't make any sense once you guys start going in that loop.

Ilona 12:06

Yeah.

Ben 12:08

Yeah.

Ilona 12:11

Oh, so so the evidence me for you is that if you're not feeling good, that is not okay. The feeling not good is the evidence that it's not okay.

Ben 12:28

It's the it's the it's the identification that seems to make it not okay. It's the it's the wanting things to be different that seems to make it not okay. Because when the when the identification isn't there, when when I can see that there's no identity there and that and that and there's nothing to get wrapped up in I want it to be this way or that way, then there does seem to be some kind of okayness that's there. And so there is a desire or seeking to have more of that recognition or have that recognition be more clear.

Ilona 13:12

Okay, as you know, this is the kind of a result, or I wouldn't see a goal because that wouldn't bring up more seeking, but a result of self-inquiry and recognizing your true nature and uh seeing that everything is happening by itself anyway, there is no duer or manager here. And is that clear for you that there is no manager? Somebody separate outside from life making it happen.

Ben 13:48

It's it's clear. Uh it's clear when I look, it's clear when I know it's it, but when I'm wrapped up in it, it seems like I forget that, or it seems like that's not clear sometimes.

Ilona 14:03

Yeah, that's correct. Because there is expansion, there is contraction, there is expansion, there is contraction, and that's happening by itself, like sunshine and rain. Sunshine and rain.

Ben 14:14

Yep.

Ilona 14:16

But there is some part that always remembers that. Maybe not remembers that as a concept or idea, but remembers to check and look and see freshly. Yeah. And then the rain is okay, the sun is okay. Oh preference, okay. So then there is nothing to look for, really.

Ben 14:47

It's just to look at What's the difference between looking for and looking at?

Ilona 15:04

Looking for is always to looking outside. Like if you lose your shoes, you will look everywhere outside. But if these shoes are on your feet, you will not find them because you're looking outside. Looking at putting right balancing, yeah. Stay here on my feet. Yeah, that's a difference.

unknown 15:29

Yeah.

Ilona 15:30

Looking for that's good outside in the future, something will happen, something needs to change. Looking at what is already here. Okay, George. Hi there. Hi, how are you? How am I? Yes, I'm okay.

George 16:03

Have to think about that. Um my motivation is to secure peace of mind. Um I'm 85 years old, and if I look to the future, all I can see, what happens to most people my age, they eventually get ill, suffer all sorts of illnesses, and then die. And what I would like to do is to have have peace of mind so that I can have some distance from that experience. That is I think that if I really know who I if I know who I really am, not just intellectually, but really get it, then I would be more peaceful. And um these other incidents when they happen, they'll just happen.

Ilona 17:23

So what are you trying to avoid?

George 17:28

Trying to avoid um I'm trying to avoid these uncomfortable feelings in the future. I'm trying to avoid right now worry about the future. Uh let me see. What else am I trying to avoid? Um I guess that's it. I mean, there's a there's a non-acceptance of how things are now, and then I think I should awaken. I don't know what else to say.

Ilona 18:07

Yeah, so so basically you don't want to awaken or anything, you just want to not to experience these bad future feelings.

George 18:17

Well, I do want to awaken because I think that is the way to get some distance from these future bad feelings.

Ilona 18:26

Well, what they mentioned that if I am not controlling with the weather, then it's not going to rain.

George 18:36

Yeah. Um also I must mention with regard to doing this, I can really intellectually understand that I am not the doer. Things just happen, but it still feels like I am the doer. And I've been unable to get that shift in perspective.

Ilona 19:01

And what if it still feels like you are doing? That there is no doer is also here.

George 19:13

Well, if I think I am the doer, then I could feel frustration because I'm not doing things right. I can regret the past. Um, if I were not the doer, there'd be no regret of the past, it just happened.

Ilona 19:30

What if the regret of the regret of the past also is just happening? How are you doing that?

George 19:38

Oh, of course that's right.

Ilona 19:42

See, if there is no door, really, if there is no door, it's not like something comes in and becomes a door and then leaves sometimes, some moments. If there is no dirt, there is no dir. I mentioned the weather for a reason because we know that we don't control weather, and we don't even try to. And we know sometimes it's sunshine, sometimes it's horrible. Depends where you live, but you don't try to control that. You know that this is here and it will pass and it will be sunshine again. It's not like something comes in, starts raining, starts making the rain, becomes a doer, controls the weather for a little bit, and then goes away. And when there is sunshine, it's all okay. It's nobody's doing that.

George 20:39

Yes, it's very clear to me that I do not control the weather. There's no doubt about that. But it does appear that I can control other things.

Ilona 20:56

Like what?

George 20:57

Um, I know you're gonna ask that.

Ilona 21:01

Yes, let's find out. What are you controlling right now?

George 21:09

Well, I think I'm controlling what I say. I know I I know I don't control my thoughts. Yes, I think I'm controlling what I say. I think I can choose to elaborate. Or I can try to make sense. And I think I have the choice. I think I can control that.

Ilona 21:42

Also But how did you know that this this will show up? Did you decide that?

George 21:51

I'm sorry, say that again, please.

Ilona 21:53

Before you say something, how do you know what will show up?

George 22:01

Before I say something, I don't know what's going to show up.

Ilona 22:06

Then it shows up. Like you said, you are not, you see that the thoughts come by itself. Thoughts come by itself. And talking is thought. It's also thought.

George 22:20

Yes, for the most part, I hear it at the same time you do. That is, I don't go through the rest of my life thinking in advance what I'm going to say.

Ilona 22:30

Yes, you just hear the words coming out.

George 22:33

I just hear the words coming out. On the other hand, I think that I could control what I want to say, as in the example I just gave you. So I think there is some control that there's an element of you ask me what I can control. I think I can control that. I can choose to raise my hand. In fact, with regard to raising my hand, um when you asked for people to uh participate, I chose to react and raise my hand. Okay. So it seems like there was a choice there.

Ilona 23:26

That's correct. It seems like. But this is always a little bit late. The impulse was already there, the invitation was already there. And something either comes on or doesn't come on. And before that, I did this, something happened. Like even when you said I'm going to raise the hand, that already, these words were already laid to the impulse that came in. So if you look at the impulse.

George 24:06

Yes, you are absolutely right. I've looked at that in the past, and if I stop and look, I notice that the impulse comes first, and I didn't choose the impulse. So if I really look logically, I can get yes, there's no choice, there's no doer. I didn't choose the impulse. The impulse came and I reacted to the impulse. So logically, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Ilona 24:40

But do you choose the narrative that is happening after? We are trained to speak in language, and the language demands someone doing something. Like it has to be someone doing something, because without it, the language is a little bit weird. So the language is always coming in and naming what already happened, the impulse or the desire or some stuff that happened. And then it speaks from the first perspective. I did this, I decided it. And it's also automatic.

George 25:25

Yes, you're absolutely right. I know, I want to say I have no doubt that you're right. I have some doubt, but yes, what you say appears correct. And what's frustrating is that I can intellectually know that what you say makes perfect sense. And yet I still somehow feel that there's an I here, a person here, a doer here. Very frustrating.

Ilona 25:59

Can you pinpoint that in your experience? What is this doer right now?

George 26:06

No.

Ilona 26:07

How do you know it's there?

George 26:09

I can't I can't pinpoint that in my experience. If I look and if I look, I cannot find a doer. If I look, I cannot find a person.

Ilona 26:22

What do you find?

George 26:26

Nothing. I mean, there's a okay, let's let me be more specific. Well, I know that I am, and I'm not even sure how I know that. Well, let's put it this way. I know that I have experiences. That is, I know that I can uh I see colors right now. And I know that when you speak, I hear you, and when I speak, I hear me, and I know when I go to the garbage, I can smell the garbage, and I know I can taste food. Yeah, so I know I have these senses, those are indoubtable, and since I have those senses, there must be some awareness here, right? Okay, that all makes sense.

Ilona 27:26

There are experiences, yes. The question that you want to ask, what what is the experiencer? Where is this experiencer? Is there one question?

George 27:40

If I look for the experiencer, look at experiencer, just look at it, right at it, directly at the experiencer. One moment, look at the experiencer. Well, I see I see myself up there in YouTube. Um, if I had a mirror, I think I can look at the experiencer. But let me be more, I'm just trying to look at the experiencer.

Ilona 28:19

Yeah. What is that? What are you looking at?

George 28:28

This is very frustrating because there's a sense of a me, there's a sense of an experiencer, but looking at looking at can't find.

Ilona 28:39

Look at the sense of me. The sense of me, you meant look at the sense.

George 28:48

Okay, so there's a sense of me.

unknown 28:53

Okay.

George 28:54

Now, when I say a sense, what do I really mean? It's not a sense like one of the five senses. It's a sense of uh like a knowingness. Um yeah, there's a knowingness that I am. I I think we we we agree on that, but I can't distinguish the that I am from this person. Uh I can't make that distinction. That is it seems that I am, and it seems that there's a person here who's who's a doer, but it's all it seems like.

Ilona 29:37

Yes, correct. It's all seems like right. So if it seems like, is that what you are? Something that seems like well, no. Yeah, because that what seems like is very vague. It's a an image, a wisp, an idea, a sense, a person that can be pinpointed, can be looked directly at because there is nothing there. It seems like there's no truth.

George 30:18

Yes, it seems like, but that seems seems I hate to say seems very strong. Um there is a difference between seeing, like seeing and seems okay, but I can't make the distinction between seeming that I am in the sense of awareness, and seeing that I am in the sense of an individual person. They seem the same level of seeingness, the same level of seenness. I can't distinguish those two.

Ilona 31:03

Are you aware right now?

George 31:06

Am I aware now? Of course.

Ilona 31:08

Yes, that doesn't seem that's like, of course. Right?

George 31:13

Yes, you're right.

Ilona 31:15

That's the difference. Where's the person right now?

George 31:24

How do I know that I'm aware right now? Do I deduce it from the fact that I have these five senses? Or is it really a sense of a knowingness, of awareness, aliveness, of beingness?

Ilona 31:41

They need to think to be aware.

George 31:45

No, certainly not.

Ilona 31:46

So it's prior thinking, prior senses.

George 31:50

Definitely every yes, definitely prior to thinking.

Ilona 31:54

And it's not like it seems like, it's like, of course.

George 32:00

Yes, you're right. Of course. Of course, I'm aware. There can't be any doubt about that. This is probably the only thing I can't doubt.

Ilona 32:11

Yes. Because even if I say that I am here, there is also the same to say something is here, there's something here. Well, color, sound, sensations, something is here. There is knowing of something being here. Knowing of being here.

George 32:35

Yes.

Ilona 32:38

But what is this? How is this? This is on the level of thinking. It seems there is a person, it seems I am doing this, it seems I'm deciding it. It feels like it. It's on a different level, it's on a thought level.

George 33:02

I was about to say, it doesn't seem like it's a thought level.

Ilona 33:05

Yeah, you have to think about this.

George 33:08

No, no, I understand completely what you're saying. The understanding seems to be here now. When I stop and I can stop and meditate and give me thirty seconds, hold it. So I can stop, and then there's no there's no George here when I do that. But throughout the rest of my life, the rest of my day.

Ilona 34:01

So how many of you are there?

George 34:04

How many of me are there?

Ilona 34:06

Yeah.

George 34:07

Well, either zero or one.

Ilona 34:09

I don't think there's one. Well, it's a zero is still one.

George 34:18

Okay.

Ilona 34:20

But that's the difference. What is actuality and what is imagined?

George 34:29

Yes. Also, I feel like I've taken a lot of time, but it seems like no one else has their hand up.

Ilona 34:36

So I guess I can are you waiting for somebody to raise the hand up.

George 34:41

No, no, I just feel maybe a little bit guilty because other people may want to talk to you, but no one else has the hand up, so I I can keep going.

Ilona 34:50

Um, look at that. Hands are coming up now.

unknown 34:55

Okay.

George 34:56

Hands are coming up now.

Ilona 34:57

Hands are coming up.

George 34:58

Okay. Very good, Ilona. Thank you. Let some other people have their have their shot. Thank you. And thank you all for listening to my nonsense. Thank you.

Ilona 35:09

Oh, George, it's always a pleasure to explore with you because you are open and you are looking and you are present. And yeah, it's um very good.

George 35:20

Thank you, Yan.

Ilona 35:22

Wonderful. Wonderful to be with you. Thank you. Okay, we have uh Swan and Tammy. I don't know who's first.

Swen 35:36

All right.

Ilona 35:37

Okay, okay, Swan. Hi.

Swen 35:40

Oh, I go first then. Hi. Yeah. I can't really uh stay uh inside at 6 p.m. uh with a sunny day. What was it for me? Uh searching, I don't know. This started really early as a teenager, uh 14 years old or something. It was always uh feeling of not good enough, yeah. And uh I don't know where it came from, probably from my mother or something that I always had to be better or the best or whatever. And then later I also had uh like acne, bad skin, and I've always felt like uh I don't belong, I'm different, and this kind of stuff, and strong sense of separation, of being different than others or something. Yeah, and but what I've realized now is like yeah, it's just it it boils down to the feeling, yeah. The feeling I still have that I create by thinking uh there's something missing, something wrong with my life. Uh I'm not I don't know, I don't have the right experiences, or things should be different, or um and that creates a feeling in the body, like in this area, and that's uncomfortable, and yeah, I think that's enough.

Ilona 37:25

Yeah, so it's looking to feel better.

Swen 37:30

Yeah, it it all boils down to this ultimately. Yeah, I I theme through the ideas of the mind, like if this happens or that happens, then I would feel better, you know. If I would live in this country if I travel there, if I have a camper then, if I have more money, or like uh I mean, like maybe a part of me still believes that, but especially in the moment. But in general, I've seen all these things they should give me one thing, and that is uh feeling okay, feeling uh peace, basically. And uh yeah, and I also had a general issue with life. Like I always felt like there's something wrong here. I don't want to get old, I don't want to die, I don't want to disappear. Well, now I've learned apparently I I don't disappear because I'm not the body, but for a while I was even looking to Taoism and like, oh, how can you become 200 years old? This kind of stuff, you know.

Ilona 38:29

So much suffering, 200 years old, and it's not enough.

Swen 38:34

Make the body immortal, you know, like this Brian Johnson uh crazy dude, you know, optimize, yeah.

Ilona 38:42

Yeah, both but right here right now, is there anything missing? Even with these feelings right here right now.

Swen 38:58

Yeah, the good feeling is missing. I I would say uh spontaneously.

Ilona 39:02

Uh good feeling is missing. Okay, let's acknowledge that. I want to feel good.

Swen 39:15

I want to feel good, yes.

Ilona 39:17

Yeah, and are you ready to feel good?

Swen 39:23

Uh now I notice how the conditions pop up in my mind. You can't really feel good uh looking like this and uh living like this.

Ilona 39:33

Look, you're on the beach. Sand, sun, wonderful, relaxing. What's wrong with this?

Swen 39:44

It's not enough. I'm too lazy and should be doing something different. What should be more good enough things? Oh it's like nagging me in a critic.

Ilona 40:06

Are you ready to be good enough?

Swen 40:14

I guess so, yeah.

Ilona 40:20

Red pill, you can be good, perfect. Um I'm ready to be good enough, yes. Would you take this red pill?

Swen 40:31

Yes, I would take it, yes. I think so.

Ilona 40:33

Right now, see okay, you can be good and fine and enjoy your life right now.

Swen 40:41

I'd like that. I'd like that.

Ilona 40:43

Yeah.

Swen 40:44

Just seems like a part of me is uh opposed to it, but I'm not really that part, but that part is also there.

Ilona 40:51

Uh-huh. Okay. So who are you gonna listen to? Which part? The one that says, Yes, I want to be contained in my life. It's my life, that's it. Or the part that says no, they will never be good enough.

Swen 41:12

I guess I want to listen to the part that wants to be content.

unknown 41:16

Okay.

Swen 41:18

The other part is just conditioning from from parents from society.

Ilona 41:24

Can you tell that part you have full permission to be free to feel good? Yeah, full permission to feel good.

Swen 41:35

Full permission to feel good.

Ilona 41:37

It's safe to feel good.

Swen 41:41

Safe to feel good.

Ilona 41:43

It feels good to feel good.

Swen 41:47

It's good to feel good.

Ilona 41:49

Um Yeah, and there's nothing in the future that may can make you feel good now. It's now or now.

Swen 41:58

No, there is not. It's now never, yes, it's now never.

Ilona 42:02

Yeah. Now look around. Maybe it's okay.

Swen 42:49

Not getting things done, but that's also not true, actually.

Ilona 42:52

You're not doing anything like right now on the beach. I can fully enjoy this moment on the beach. Is it okay to enjoy it?

Swen 43:26

I think.

Ilona 43:27

From fun.

Swen 43:28

It's not it's not safe to be to feel good at once.

Ilona 43:32

Uh-huh. The part the part that wants to be safe from feeling good.

Swen 43:40

No, he thinks it's not safe to feel good for some reason. It's too free.

Ilona 43:47

It's too free.

Swen 43:49

It might trigger other people or something. Oh Yeah, I know it's nonsense. Logically, yeah, but I'm just speaking what comes up here.

Ilona 44:04

It's good to notice these nonsensical programs that keep running. It's not safe to feel good. Maybe it was at some point. Maybe when you were little something happened and you were feel feeling good and it was abruptly taken away, and the shock of that is so crippling. Feeling good doesn't cause trouble. Feeling good, it's good. More of that. Thank you.

Swen 45:11

Perfect, there's still a a bit of this constriction and it's like no matter what I say, it's thinking I have to go more primal. Just really learn to be with what is here right now. Feeling good is already in the future. No, I'm not looking for something. I'm not looking for something that comes and goes.

Ilona 45:40

Yeah, it's just what's here. What's here? There is this contraction here, and there is also this.

Swen 45:45

I'm busy. It's a friend of mine.

Ilona 45:58

Yeah, there is a contraction, and there is also this beautiful environment sunshine and warmth and relaxation at the same time. And it's safe to feel when you're feeling all of it. The relaxation and the contraction.

Swen 46:29

Yeah, so that's safe. I don't want to be afraid of my feelings anymore. Tired of it. Silly. Just running away from uh your feelings, the whole life.

Ilona 46:45

Yeah, I just agree that it's okay to stop.

Swen 46:50

It's okay to stop running away.

Ilona 46:52

No more changing.

Swen 47:10

All right, I think that's enough of impulse for t impulse for today.

Ilona 47:16

So are you okay now on the beach?

Swen 47:20

Maybe not, maybe yes. Uh there are many, but that's that's actually there's a level that is deeper that is not complaining, even if there's complaining going on, you know.

Ilona 47:34

Yeah. I hear you.

Swen 47:47

I don't want to try get rid of anything. Just about being with everything that's here. Every thought, every human. Yeah, of course also we got again a thought uh in the future, in the future, always in the future. Even if it's just a little bit in the future, like in a few days. Then it's okay. Not now, but maybe tomorrow. But I see all of it. See all of it.

Ilona 48:35

Yeah, you're looking from now. I'm looking from the now there are five phrases that you can use anytime there's something that comes up and feel uncomfortable. And these five phrases, first thing is to say, I see you. Then you're already talking from a different place, not from within that contraction, but from a distance. I see you. Then you say, I acknowledge you're here. Double acknowledgement. I acknowledge you're here. Thank you for coming. You're welcome here, and you can be as you are.

Swen 49:39

Yeah, I do something because I've been in these meetings a lot. I think I've been doing something like that. I see you, you're welcome. And it but sometimes it doesn't work at all. Sometimes you're like, no, you're not welcome. You know, what is this shit? I'm lying to myself. You're not welcome.

Ilona 49:59

Yes, but when you do that to get rid of something, it doesn't work. That's kind of genuine openness required.

Swen 50:09

It's a refinement of consciousness, really. When you as soon as you do something to the feeling, even if you say, Oh, you're welcome, too get rid of it, it's already a resistance.

Ilona 50:21

Yes, yes, that becomes another weapon. Yeah, let's fight with it.

Swen 50:29

It's not fighting, it's just just being, just be let it be, like the Beatles. Yes.

Ilona 50:38

It's already here, so so be it.

Swen 50:41

It's already there, exactly. You can't fight with reality. Yeah, okay. I wanted to let some space for others as well, so we're gonna go. Thank you.

Ilona 50:55

Thank you, Swen. Enjoy your sunny beach. Yes, it's you can live in a paradise and be miserable, or you can be in a small tiny space somewhere not so nice and feel awesome. That's the difference is in how we approach not in where we are. Um, before I speak to Tammy, uh, I want to say that seeing through the self-illusion is one thing, but to integrate and to live with that recognition every day is something else. It requires awareness of every moment, seeing something freshly, seeing what's here, and all these patterns come up, all these conditionings come up, and all these contractions can be seen and met without resistance, with this different kind of attitude of kindness, openness, welcoming, and something starts shifting, and it's not so easy to do that by yourself. It does require some patience and remembering, remembering, but if you have some support, then it's so much easier because a group of people, when they are looking together, the energy gets stronger, it kind of moves through everyone. So I have created um deep looking immersion, and this is going to be a group, very small group, four to six people only, very intimate, very safe group for people who want to look deeply and see what's going on with the patterns and conditioning together. Um, I just sent some emails to my email list, just a little bit of information about that. It's just the first email. And if you like to receive this information, just follow the link in the description. I'll put it in the description. How to subscribe, and you'll get all the info. That's it. And yes, Tammy, please come in. Nice to see you.

Tammy 53:29

Hi, Ilona, good to see you. Um, yeah, um, I a lot of things landed today for me. Um I've uh just what I've been going through lately is a lot of internal storms. But right, but then right now I'm like in a calm of after a storm and some like downloading of wisdom this morning and just like seeing patterns and stuff. And um, I don't know what you said about um, you know, we think that if we realize we're not in charge of the weather, then it'll stop raining. Uh that was a really good one. Um that landed, and of course then mind came in with some other stuff, so I wanted it doing it, but um that was cool, and I think um, yeah, what's I think what's told is like no no no, if you realize that you're not, then it will stop raining on you, and that's why we do practice because we want to end suffering for ourselves and others. In other words, you can make it perfect weather for you and others. In other words, there is that thing of no no no, realizing X will change things, and so um there's that, and um yeah, so it's like um, and then I just wanted to say that I do see at some level, I'm like, yeah, I see a lot of this. I see that things just arise. Um, it does surprise me that they continue to arise despite me seeing them. Like, I'm like, oh my god, I'm panicking out, and yet it'll still be there until it's not, and then I'm in the calm of the storm and I can talk about it. And but the whole time I'm seeing it, it's just like, why the heck wouldn't it just stop? So there's all of that. But but also is there something that I'm missing? In other words, in order to be at more peace, is it just to realize that we don't control the weather, that things are just arising, the panic's arising, the calm is arising, now I'm starting to speak more faster is arising. I'm like just seeing everything as arising, is it just that I need to see it more deeply? Like, is it just that I need to more immerse myself in seeing that? Or is there also the thing that I'm missing, seeing as myself not only is not the doer, which I have to realize maybe more deeply, but also that I'm not even the experiencer. In other words, do I really need to see all those? Because you asked, what are we looking for? For me, I think it's like a complete and like I'm so panicked in the body and in the mind. I just need a complete, I want fearlessness, I want peace, I want a complete freedom and letting go of all of that.

Ilona 56:19

Yes. And putting an expectation on some kind of future event that will resolve your nervous system.

Tammy 56:28

Right. Well, realizing, oh, I'm not the doer and I'm not even an experiencer. Will that resolve and bring me that freedom, that trust, that peace, that lack of existential terror?

Ilona 56:38

Uh no, I would I wouldn't say that. It's more like all these contractions that are still there, all the hurts that haven't healed, they need their own time and space to heal. The mind imagines that there is some kind of magic line where you cross it and everything is going to be okay. But that the the your nervous system is sensitive and it reacts and responds to triggers that were hurtful before, unless these triggers are looked at and healed, meaning they no longer arise, then the piece is just an idea.

Tammy 57:25

So how do I know? Go on.

Ilona 57:28

What you mentioned is that there are some situations and some feelings that keep coming up, and you wonder why are they coming up? They are coming up because they haven't been met fully, and sometimes it needs to be layer by layer by layer by layer, and it feels like it's the same and the same and the same, but it's always something a little bit from deeper, more maybe subtle. It's the same route, but it hasn't reached the bottom yet, meaning it still hasn't resolved completely because once it's met fully, once it resolves, it no longer is a trigger. There's no trigger there. It's just like, all right, things happen. It's okay. That kind of stuff. That's what a piece is.

Tammy 58:18

How do we know though that it's not just something wrong with me? In other words, it's not just innate to me. Like you're like, you have to heal these triggers, but what if it's not triggers? What if something's deeply wrong with me? And I just go berserk every few days, you know.

Ilona 58:30

Well, this is this is the pattern. This is a program, this is a belief that there's something wrong with me, and that is your route. This is what needs to be directly addressed, otherwise, it keeps running. And it doesn't matter what you do or what you where you go, who you speak to, that that route needs to be looked at. How to know that there is something wrong with you.

Tammy 59:02

You're asking, yeah. How do I know? Who do you have another three hours? Um, no, I don't want you to to go into the story, I want you to look and see how what is the evidence that there's something wrong with you that I'm not at peace and I don't deal with things well, and I haven't built a good light, and I'm in terror, and I'm not sure. Okay, just just feel.

Ilona 59:31

Don't go into the story, but look in your experience right now. How do you know that there's something wrong with you? Find that feeling what is it in the body? What do you feel? There's something wrong with me.

Tammy 1:00:06

Um, I don't know. It's more like if suddenly a dog came running, or if suddenly whatever, and then the adrenaline rises, then I'm like, oh my god, you see, there you go again, something's wrong. In other words, anything that happens, I'm like, you see, or if I think about my life story, uh when something arises, like right now, I'm pretty okay speaking to you guys. But if any thoughts arise, or if if a dog were to run past me now and I would get again crazy inside, I'd be like, You see, what is wrong with it?

Ilona 1:00:37

It's um that's just a pattern. There's no proof, it's just it's taken on a belief that there is something wrong with you. If you are feeling, if you are sensitive, if you see some energies moving inside, but doesn't mean anything, it's neither right nor wrong, it's just what's happening.

Tammy 1:01:04

Yeah, but normal people don't live with so much fear or anger, you know.

Ilona 1:01:08

Oh, you don't know that. Normal people live with a lot of peace, suffering. Yeah, yeah. So instead of listening to these stories that keep running, there is something wrong with me. Look at the feeling and meet that feeling and let that feeling be. As I said, I see you, welcome. You can be as you are, just giving it space to open up because it's the feeling that you're running away from, and all these stories that come up they confirm that if if you feel this feeling, there is something wrong with you, but that feeling is not our proof that there is something wrong with you, it just wants to be felt and met fully so that it can resolve itself. There's nothing wrong with you.

Tammy 1:02:07

There's nothing wrong with it. Very, very true. Everything that arises, I immediately say, Oh my god, you see something is deeply wrong, and then I get into despair. It's very true. That is the pattern, yeah.

Ilona 1:02:18

Yeah, so it's not that there's something wrong with you, it's the pattern that is here to be seen and met. And when it's no longer here, how do you know that there is something wrong with you?

Tammy 1:02:41

Just because of the internal craziness of the body and the mind.

Ilona 1:02:45

Okay, what if this craziness is allowed? That's normal, that's how the system responds. Given situations it's it went through and experiences it had, it's very normal this to respond this way. So instead of um running with this thought that there is something wrong with me, look, that's the proof because I don't feel good. That's the proof. Look at this with a curiosity, like, hmm, what's really going on here? The thought came in again. Oh, I see you, I see this thought. I acknowledge this thought is here, I feel this emotion here or this energy here. Hmm, interesting. Is it okay to feel it? Because if it's okay to feel it, there's no need to run away from it.

Tammy 1:03:49

Yeah, there's terror of my own feelings, it's like craziness, but um there's nothing wrong with feelings in whichever intensity and depth they are coming, it's okay. So it's it's very, very scary because I want to get out of it. I don't want to just allow it. It's like how many decades am I just allowed it?

Ilona 1:04:20

It's like you want to fix it, but but you don't think that's not intend to run away from something you cannot run away from.

Tammy 1:04:29

I guess that's where I'm still hoping. You know, you said about hope. I'm still hoping that if I realize no doer, realize no experience, or wait, which one do I need to get? And then I won't stop feeling this way. Wait, which which realization do I need to have?

Ilona 1:04:41

Yeah, but um that's seeking, seeking for something that doesn't exist instead of meeting what is here.

Tammy 1:04:51

So you don't think I need to have this no-doer, no experience or realization in order to stop the terror of the terror? No.

Ilona 1:04:58

No, you just need to feel what you're feeling, and now it's safe to feel and give yourself time and space to meet these energies, meet these feelings without running away or without wishing them to go away. It's like all right, okay, if it if I cannot run away from this and I tried and tried and tried, what's what are the other options? The option would be to stop and say, okay, whatever wants to be felt, come come, let's feel you now. I'm not afraid. Come in.

Tammy 1:05:43

I guess there's still hope that you know the right meditation or the right whatever could do it. But you know, people talk about finding peace and bliss, but you don't think that it's possible?

Ilona 1:05:53

Um yes, it is possible, and there is An opening when the opening happens, I'm sure I mentioned that before. When the opening happens, stuff that was suppressed or is just underneath the surface comes in and surface to be met, and then there is more openness, then there is more space for the next layer to be met. So the pieces with all that, the deeper pieces with any weather, sunshine, rain, it's okay, it will pass. Just act accordingly, dress accordingly.

Tammy 1:06:41

And what if I never fully realize no doer or no experience? Or can I still find the peace?

Ilona 1:06:47

Yes, yes.

Tammy 1:06:49

A deep peace, not a fake peace, like a real peace.

Ilona 1:06:52

Yes. There are many, many people who don't even ask this question, and they are peaceful people having quiet, calm life. Never been into any search or anything. So this is not a condition. It comes along the way when it comes, it cannot be forced or um, I would say made. But looking at your feelings and letting them be allows them to self-resolve, and then there is peace, and this is something practical. But yeah, you have to lose the hope that there is something there that will fix that, or that you will not need to feel what you feel.

unknown 1:07:39

Yeah.

Ilona 1:07:40

Is there any way to do yeah? Sorry, go on. Uh it's like trying to fix a symptom while the the deeper thing is not addressed, so it's just trying to get rid of something unpleasant while the root or the fuel for it hasn't been addressed. And the hope is that you can do that. The root, the root is that contraction and it's in the body that hasn't been met.

Tammy 1:08:14

And do you think that I'm doing it wrong or not as efficiently if it's taking so long of me? Like I recognize I'm different than I was a year ago. I recognize that I'm different than I was. I recognize that there's a you know but it's only for you to know.

Ilona 1:08:30

Only you can see the change.

Tammy 1:08:32

It's tiny changes, but I wish take them.

Ilona 1:08:35

Am I yeah, take them, be grateful for them. Take them tiny little steps. Yes, there is no big boom, bra boom, everything is happy ever after.

Tammy 1:08:44

It's it's moment to moment, it's now, it's always now so much, so much craziness is still arising, and I'm like, am I doing it wrong? Am I not? Is there a faster better way? But there's no faster, better way, it's just what's happening now.

Ilona 1:08:59

See, the mind projects the future, some kind of timeline, some kind of speed. But what you need to deal with is just what is here, the only thing, only what's here.

Tammy 1:09:15

And do you believe I need to develop some kind of meditation practice or inquiry or something where I can just live my life and when it arises, be present and as best as I can.

Ilona 1:09:25

It's up to you, you know what works for you. It's like trusting that you have what you need, or what you need will come. And just meeting this moment as it is. This moment, there's frustration, there is anger, there is panic. Okay, breathe through it, it will pass. That's it, that's all you need to do. Then there is sunshine again, then there's quiet again, and enjoy that while it lasts because something else is going to come. So it's not about how to deal with future situations, it's more about what is here right now, and is this allowed? Can this be can I just feel what I feel and feeling it, not thinking about it, you know? The difference between being direct and indirect is like talking about feelings, trying to fix them, getting rid of them, all that kind of stuff, or just really facing that feeling and saying, I see you, that's being direct.

Tammy 1:10:39

Yeah, because the thoughts become very loud, and I want to try and solve and help, and um, yeah.

Ilona 1:10:46

But when you turn to the feeling and say, I see you, and you can be the way you are, there's enough space for you. And these words help to hold attention, that's what they're here for. They help to help attention on that energy, and then you are staying with that energy, and it's whatever is happening inside, it's it's okay, it's okay, it's safe. I can be with this. That is the way into peace. Because the more of these contractions resolve, there's more space, space for joy, gladness.

Tammy 1:11:34

Yeah, it's it's not easy when it's when it's very strong, crazy, stormy, oh my god, panicky type things, you know what I mean? But um, so you're saying even that, just allow it to be there and the thoughts and the emotions, and um yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

Ilona 1:11:52

Look at that, there's nothing wrong.

Tammy 1:12:03

I mean, it seems very, very wrong, and like I can't have a life, you know, when I when I can't trust this life my own system, I can't build a life without you know what I mean. I can't have other people in my life, I can't take on more work commitments, like I can't I don't trust the system. But um, yeah.

Ilona 1:12:20

That's a big one when you said you don't trust the system well. That's like um fighting your own foot. I don't trust my foot.

Tammy 1:12:31

Yeah, I don't know what will arise within me, so I can't trust it.

Ilona 1:12:35

I can't invite other people into my life, I can't take on too much because what if you could just honor your system and know that it's doing the best it can and it's intelligent, and there is a way out, but you have to stop trying to manage it, just honor it.

Tammy 1:12:57

It's very hard for me. I I I scream at it all day. Like it's very hard to honor it. I can honor the good parts, but I can't honor 90% of it. You know what I mean? Like I honor that I have potential, but I don't honor that I'm not able to figure it out and that I suffer so much, like it's very hard to honor. I I yell at myself mostly.

Ilona 1:13:17

Yeah, then seeing or not seeing self or no self is not gonna change anything until you turn towards your system and make friends with it as it is now, not in potential, the perfect parts, yeah. And it's okay, it's just waiting for you. So, would you be willing to make friends with your system the way it works?

Tammy 1:13:50

That makes my stomach turn just thinking about it.

Ilona 1:13:53

Uh-huh.

Tammy 1:13:53

Good one, good one, really. I'm like, uh, it makes me nauseous.

Ilona 1:13:57

Like uh, here we go. This is your hook. No, the first thing is, are you willing to make friends with your system?

Tammy 1:14:13

I don't know. I've been going the other way very strongly for a very long time.

Ilona 1:14:18

Yeah, but you can't run away from it, so it's better to make friends, isn't it?

Tammy 1:14:28

Yeah, and I felt being friendly was pushing it along. Come on, you can do better. What's wrong with you? That was for me was being a good friend till now. But yeah. Oh it's like where is my whip? Can I whip myself, please? It's trying to pull myself out. Like a friend doesn't let a friend just sit there and feel their feelings, a friend pulls it out, you know what I mean?

Ilona 1:14:46

Like friend is friend is here with you, whatever you're feeling. Doesn't say it's wrong to feel that, you shouldn't be feeling that. Move.

Tammy 1:14:59

I guess when I have a friend who's in trouble, I say, come on, let's go. You know, I I try and pull them up into joy, I don't sit with them. Uh you know what I mean? Otherwise, we'll both get depressed. So I it scares me to sit with it, but yeah. Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Ilona 1:15:14

Um so the first step is to be willing to make friends, and then when you are living willing, then check if you're ready to be friends with your own system, it's not so much to be friends, it's to allow it to be what it is without trying to change it.

Tammy 1:15:37

To me, that's not being a good friend. Like I'm a coach, I pull, I teach, I pull people out of things, I pull people out of situations to allow it to be is an like against everything I do in my life.

Ilona 1:15:48

But um, yeah, but you know, it's either working or not working. So if it's not working, how many years are you gonna keep trying?

Tammy 1:15:56

Yeah, all right, maybe it's not all or nothing. Maybe I can try a little bit here and there. How's that?

Ilona 1:16:03

Yes, that's a start. That's a start, yes, yes, Tami. Because having some idea in head that something will fix this eventually, oh good. It's an obstruction to meeting what is here already, the way it is.

Tammy 1:16:28

Yeah, it's like my job is to get rid of it, and I have to find what will get rid of it. Maybe it's this meditation, maybe it's this realization. So tell me which one. But um, yeah.

Ilona 1:16:39

Yeah, give it another 20 years, then we talk, and you're gonna tell me your achievements with that. Yeah, and it will be exactly the same place.

Tammy 1:16:48

Don't think about meditation or realization or whatever, just meet my stuff, yeah, in a friendly way.

Ilona 1:16:54

Yeah, and literally not think uh you can you can have a have an hour every day just going into the heart and saying, Okay, heart, what do you want to feel now? You're allowed to feel whatever you want to feel, anything it's fine, you're okay, yeah, and just allowing it to come up, whatever wants to come up, and feeling it. It sounds terrifying, but um, like I don't know if I'll survive it literally, but um yeah, and you can say give me give me as much as I can handle in this moment, like it don't explode, you're not waiting for explosion, but you know, you say hard to know how much I can take now. So five percent, one percent doesn't matter, but it's the willingness and openness to turn towards your own system and honoring it the way it is.

Tammy 1:17:57

Yeah, because usually I go all in and then I'm completely overwhelmed and flooded with terror, fear, anger, confusion, and I can't, I really can't handle it. But you're saying to not go all to not uh let it flood, to just go a little bit, yeah.

Ilona 1:18:13

And not in the moments of extreme panic, it's when when you feel okay, when you feel safe, when you have your space, nobody's disturbing you, it's just going into the heart and feeling what's there. Okay, I don't know if I'll be skilled at it or do it right, but I will try. You're welcome to join the group if you if you feel it. That's what you do, yeah. Just meet what is here, not talking at it or about it, but going into the feeling going into the energy and giving it attention because that that's all it wants is to be seen, to be felt, be allowed. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you, Tommy. Yes, seeing through the self-illusion is one thing, living everyday life is quite something else. Because we can't take that insight or idea as a shield against our experience. And it's good to be honest with yourself. What are you looking for? And see what's behind that awakening or hope. And that that's a that's a place to start to unwind all this thinking and waiting and meeting what's here already. Meeting, meeting that quiet place everyone for coming for being here, especially people who shared gravely and honestly. Thank you. And yeah, I will see you in a month. Or if you wanna if you wanna participate in the deep looking immersion you make sure you get my emails. If not, um ready now. And we can do this now. Bye. Thanks a lot, guys. Till next time. Thank you very much.